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Author Topic: Super Smash Bros. Wii U speculation, ideas, and discussion thread  (Read 1206 times)
Offline Uber_Challenger

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« on: January 21, 2012 »

I know I may be a little late in doing this, but I finally got around to unlocking more things on Super Smash Bros. Brawl. During my time playing, I had some ideas, and I thought I would share them with you guys. Also, feel free to put your own hopes, dreams, and ideas for the next Super Smash Bros. game. Obviously, this includes ideas for characters, stages, moves, final smashes, items, and even specific modifications to these things.

Here are some of mine:

Character ideas:

Toon Ganondorf:

Obviously, I'm talking about the Ganondorf from WW. His moves would be based around sword attacks rather than physical/magical power. He would not be quite as strong as regular Ganondorf, but he would still be a tad stronger than Adult Link was in Melee. To compensate for somewhat less physical power, he would have greater speed and jumping abilities (such as he exhibited in the final battle in WW) compared to regular Ganondorf. Besides sword attacks, he would have some punches and kicks like in WW, and for his final smash, I'm thinking either something involving the Helmaroc King would be cool, or he would transform into Puppet Ganon. He would be an unlockable character.


Eevee:

I've told others about this idea, and pretty much all of them liked it. Eevee would function somewhat like Pikachu but without the electricity (and slightly more strength and less speed than Pikachu). At first I thought his different costumes should be his different transformations, but then I thought that would be his final smash. Depending on which stage Eevee is on or which opponent he is facing, he would evolve into a different form. For example, if he was facing squirtle, he would transform into Leafeon and use Solar Beam. If he was facing Ness (kind of a psychic "type"), Eevee would transform into Umbreon and use Night Slash. If he was facing Kirby or anyone who flies, he would transform into Jolteon and use Thunder. I think you get the point by now. Eevee would be a starting character.



I also have thought of a couple Pokemon I'd like to see in Pokeballs.


Dragonite:

I don't get why they haven't put him here yet. Dragonite would come out of the pokeball and use Dragon Claw. The attack would be medium speed and would aim at the opponent (or in the case of multiple opponents, he would aim at whichever one is in the lead, both in terms of lives and percentages), but it would K.O. above 60% for heavy characters and above 40% for medium and light characters. It can be shielded against, but it will break shields in this case. Needless to say, Dragonite would not appear often, but he would appear more often than legendaries.


Rayquaza:

Clearly, Rayquaza would be one of the rare legendary Pokemon. He would appear at one side of the stage and use Hyper Beam. He would also aim towards any and all opponents until they have been hit or 15 seconds have gone by. The only way to avoid the beam would be to roll or air dodge (dodging it would not be an easy thing to do, though). Anybody hit by the beam would take extreme damage and be hurled out of the stage at a great speed. Shielding would not help either, and if a shielded person was hit by it, the shield would be broken and they would be killed instantly (kind of like what happened to Jigglypuff when you broke her shield, at least in the first Super Smash Bros.).


I also had some ideas for certain characters:

Ganondorf:

I was very disappointed with what they did to Ganondorf in Brawl. He was in the top mid tier in Melee, and yet he's dead last in Brawl. Ganondorf has a ton of power (almost too much in some cases), but he's too slow to use it. And his useful attacks were mostly nerfed. Here's what I think they need to do to him in the next Smash game. His smashes should be as strong and fast as they were in melee relative to all the other characters in the game (i.e. the game may run slower or faster, but the proportions should be the same for his speed). All of his A and A-tilt attacks in the ground and air should have their speed increased slightly. The slight speeding up and power increase given to the Warlock punch should be kept, but I think they should make it look like a punch again instead of that stupid backfist he does in Brawl. His wizard's foot should be brought back to how it was in Melee (i.e. more powerful, quicker, and it should allow him to retain his second jump when it is used in midair during recovery...he needs it). The side special should be kept how it is in Brawl...the one in Melee wasn't very good. Dark Dive should have that little punch at the top kept, but the knockback should be close to the same as it was in Melee. At the very least, it should be stronger than Captain Falcon's. Also, his rush attack should have a slight knockback reduction (it would still be quite strong, though) and a slight increase in speed. I think all of this would put Ganondorf more in the upper tiers where he belongs. And unless the next Zelda with Ganondorf comes out before the next Smash game (VERY unlikely), his design should be the TP design. He looks fearsome like that, and I think doing all these things to him would make him a fearsome competitor, even at tournament levels.


Meta Knight:

I found out the other day that Meta Knight has become the first character to be banned from competitive play! I think that one thing that could be done that would nerf him just enough to make him not "cheap" but still leave him as a great character would be this: lower his ground speed, air speed, and attack speed slightly. They lowered Ganondorf's speed noticeably from Melee to Brawl and it destroyed him. But I think a small lowering of speed, particularly with Meta Knight, would allow him to be great but not so great that he's viewed as a "noob character".


Princess Zelda:

Zelda wasn't placed very high in Melee or Brawl. One thing I read about on the smash wiki (yes, I'm a nerd, I know ) is that she has a bad combination of movements. To quote the wiki, she is "(slow, light, tall, and floaty)". Based on this, I think Nintendo should start off by increasing her air and ground speeds slightly while at the same time giving her a greater falling speed and less air time overall. One other thing I noticed the wiki said that I have agreed with for a while is that Din's fire isn't a good projectile. I think instead they should make it like it was in OOT. In other words, slow it down, but make it into a fire shield around her and make it expand outwards all around. It would be EXTREMELY powerful right next to her since it's slow. It would lose it's potency the farther you go away from it and would totally go away after yet more distance (say...it could engulf 3/4 of Final Destination's platform and go about halfway up the screen but no more than that). I think that making the lightning kicks a hair easier to sweetspot and slightly more powerful would also do her justice, and I think you should be able to see her (albeit in sort of a "ghost" form) and where she is going when she uses Farore's Wind. This would make it easier to direct her and I think it would be a much more effective recovery if this was done. Lastly, I think Nayru's love should last a bit longer, cause more knockback, and have a faster startup.

Let me know what you guys think of my ideas so far, and I'm looking forward to seeing what you all think should be in the next smash game.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012 by Uber_Challenger » Logged
Offline hisak

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« #1 on: January 21, 2012 »

Awesome thread, thanks for starting it. With any luck this could (eventually) become one of the bigger threads in recent memory. More on that in a bit.

Here's what we do know:

We're getting two new Smash Bros. games: one for Wii U, and one for 3DS. The two will connect in some way, probably in a similar way to how the Mario Tennis and Golf counterparts connected.

Sakurai's Project Sora is developing the game. They hadn't started it at E3 2011, but with Kid Icarus only two months away from release, I'm assuming they've started development by now.

Unlike past games in the series, in which Sakurai alone was responsible for balancing characters, this task will now be done by the dev staff.



I like all of your ideas, although I'm not sure how practical Eevee is. It would probably be better to restrict it to three evolutions so that the movesets don't become too cumbersome.

As for new characters, I'd be fine with Ghirahim replacing Ganondorf. I think he'd be a much more fun character to play as. Obviously I haven't played Xenoblade yet, but it sounds like there are a few characters from it that would be prime Smash Bros. characters. And I have to imagine that Sakurai is going to put someone else from Kid Icarus in.

New stages! Mario Galaxy's Comet Observatory is a must. I'd also like a Skyloft stage and something involving Skyward's desert.

Oh, and let's see the return of the Dojo for this game. Greatest hype builder ever.

I'll post more ideas later.
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Offline Rew

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« #2 on: January 21, 2012 »

Playing Brawl right now makes me even more excited for the next Smash Bros. game(s)!

I just hope they're not going to go overboard with the whole "Clear X, Y, and Z with all characters!" challenges if they have 40-50 playable characters (with 5 of them having alter egos, blah).

Ganondorf hasn't been in a single Zelda game in over 5 years, so I think it's time for Ghirahim to replace him on the roster. I've even come up with a moveset for him.

A: Slap.
F-tilt: Jab.
U-tilt: High kick.
D-tilt: Low kick.

F-smash: Whip-like arm attack.
D-smash: Sweeping kick.
U-smash: Hand-clap above his head.

N-air: Hand swipe.
F-air: Sword slice.
B-air: Back kick.
U-air: Upward sword thrust.
D-air: Downward sword thrust.

B: Sword.
Forward B: Dagger throw.
Down B: Counter.
Up B: Damaging teleport.

Dash attack: Slashes with sword while running, sending opponent(s) into the air.

Shield: Daggers surround him.

Up taunt: Licks his sword.
Side taunt: Tongue motion from his first encounter with Link at Skyview Temple.
Down taunt: Angsting while diamond aura surrounds him (think Fox's up-taunt in Brawl meets Ghirahim powering himself up before his third battle with Link in SS).

Final Smash:
(click to show/hide)

In general, Ghirahim would be a mid-light character in weight, somewhat similar to Zelda and Marth in Brawl. He would be somewhat floaty but would have a drastically fast fall when one holds down on the analog stick; his walk would likewise be slow but his dash very fast to make up for it. Similar to Smash Bros. metal characters, his vertical jump would not be particularly high, but his attacks would have greater offensive power than most characters of his weight class.


Zelda-themed stage ideas for SSB4:
- Skyloft (similar in concept to Brawl's Delfino Plaza).
- Sealed Grounds (The Imprisoned could interact with the stage, perhaps even temporarily becoming the stage that fighters battle each other on).
- Spirit Train (kind of a combination of Brawl's Pirate Ship and Melee's Big Blue).
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012 by Rew » Logged

Offline hisak

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« #3 on: January 22, 2012 »

I just hope they're not going to go overboard with the whole "Clear X, Y, and Z with all characters!" challenges if they have 40-50 playable characters (with 5 of them having alter egos, blah).

Oh yes. I think All-Star Mode's time has passed. I'd like to see it replaced with something else.

Quote from: Rew
- Skyloft (similar in concept to Brawl's Delfino Plaza).

This is what I thought would be cool at first, but I think it's better suited to Galaxy's Comet Observatory (and the two are too similar to both use this structure). A stage centered around the town square or the statue of the Goddess would be fine.

Now that you mention it, Sealed Grounds is really likely to be a stage. I'd still prefer one set in the desert, with working you-know-whats (spoilers!).
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Offline Uber_Challenger

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« #4 on: January 22, 2012 »

I haven't played SS yet, so I'm not sure about Ghirahim. However, I'd still like to see Ganondorf with the changes I listed. I'd hate to see him exit the series, especially since he's one of the main Zelda characters and he was quite disappointing in Brawl.

I think Ghirahim being added would be cool, though. I'd still want Ganondorf, but I could live without Toon Ganondorf for now if Ghirahim was added.

I think they also need to buff Link from how he was in Brawl. He needs to be less floaty on his recovery, his moves all need somewhat more power, make the boomerang do damage instead of just dragging people towards him, and make him heavier.
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Offline GamePunk429

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« #5 on: January 23, 2012 »

I would like to see them integrate more other companies characters into the games but not to the extreme. From Square I would like to see Cloud and maybe even Auron. Megaman is someone I would really like to see in the game as well. Golden Sun characters as playable would be cool also.

Also maybe get some oddball characters from series in there. Fierce Deity Link I would love to see in the game, and I think all of Nintendo fans would like to see that.

Other changes would be to continue to increase and work on online. While it wasn't bad in Brawl Nintendos online still needs work.
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Offline Uber_Challenger

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« #6 on: January 27, 2012 »

I definitely think Cloud belongs in the next Smash game. I don't know how far they'll be able to expand before too many characters pile up, though. As I said, Ganondorf, Link, and Zelda need to be buffed significantly from the way they were in Brawl. I think the ways I gave in the first thread of this post will help with those characters (as well as making Meta Knight less cheap). However, I thought of a couple of things for one character that isn't very good in either Melee or Brawl: Bowser.

For Bowser, I think his slow speed and large size are his biggest weaknesses. His recovery is also pretty terrible. I read the Smash wiki to see if any other factors hindered him, and I found out that he had been made faster but slightly weaker in Brawl. It also said that he is overly vulnerable to chain grabs.

I think I have a few ideas that could make him an excellent character. First, I think they should return his strength to just a hair below what it was in Melee while still making him retain his faster Brawl speed. Next, his recovery needs to change. Originally I was thinking that his Down B should be made his Up-B move and then make it more like King Dedede's recovery (i.e. more air time, greater height, and more horizontal distance), but then I read on the wiki about his trophy description and it mentioned the Koopa Clown Car (which, IIRC is originally from Super Mario World for the SNES). I think that would make a great recovery if it would fly him upwards like Snake's recovery. Also, I think it would be cool if it would protect him from the bottom and do damage (possibly spike? ) to anyone who touched it like it did in Super Mario World. Also, his fire breath is not a very good attack in its current form. I think his fire breath from Super Mario 64 during the final battle where he breathed fire into the air and it rained down into both red and blue flames would be a better attack. I think it should also be chargeable to make a higher quantity of flames that are also stronger. Also, if someone was right in front of his mouth when he let loose a fully charged fire breath, it would be the equivalent of a Falcon Punch in terms of strength. Speaking of Super Mario 64, I also think his side B should be replaced with his dash attack from the 2nd and final SM64 fights with him. It could be charged like Pikachu's skull bash or Jigglypuff's rollout, but one helpful difference: He would automatically slow down and stop if he was near a ledge like in SM64, so he couldn't self destruct like other charge moves in Smash. As for his size, well I don't think much can be done there, but I think making his evasive maneuvers a little bit more agile would help him avoid attacks more effectively. One other thing that could possibly be of help is if one of his attacks was to throw hammers (and this would be chargeable and somewhat stronger than the average projectile). I don't know if I'm forgetting anything, but I don't think Bowser currently has any long range projectiles (though my updated Super Mario 64 Fire Breath idea could probably act as one if charged somewhat).

Let me know what you think of these ideas for Bowser!
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Offline hisak

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« #7 on: April 25, 2012 »

Sakurai spoke about Smash Bros. 4 for the first time since development started in an interview with IGN.

"As you noted, there is a certain dead end we come to if we just expand the volume of the game," Sakurai told me in a recent e-mail interview, clearly recognizing that simply adding more characters, items and stages wouldn't be enough. The Smash Bros. franchise, though repeatedly earning high praise from critics over its three entries, has effectively followed the same formula since its inception, evolving its style of play without shaking things up too much. So if merely expanding the idea isn't the only thing on Sakurai's mind... what is?

"I intend to change direction a little as we go," Sakurai said, indicating his desire to possbily find a new mechanic or idea to drive two new entries in the series. "The key to that's going to be its dual support for 3DS/Wii U."

Sakurai, as well as Nintendo global president Satoru Iwata, had previously acknowledged his interest in linking the 3DS and Wii U versions of the game, which were announced simultaneously at E3 2011. "I'm really just getting started on this so it's going to take time, but I'll come up with something that uses that link as the game's central axis, so I hope you're looking forward to it."

Not a lot to go on, but it's not like there's much game to speak of yet. I'm looking forward to seeing how this idea plays out. In some ways Brawl just felt like Melee with online and a story mode (neither of which were very good, but that's beside the point), so hopefully these games will feature lots of new ideas.
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Offline Hyruleansoldier

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« #8 on: April 26, 2012 »

That's all swell, as long as they don't make the advantage of having a 3DS to important.  Many people don't have one, and also many people don't wish to ruin the 3DS's precious touch screen

Fighting games + touch screens is a bad combination.  They got Wiimotes and Nunchuks for movement stuff.

Hmmm, I wonder if GC controllers and/or traditional (VC) controllers will work on the Wii U Smash Bros.  I don't think the series would benefit from having stuff in common with Wii Boxing (read: actually needing to fling your controller(s) in specific directions to get the desired effect).

Wii U was already getting a special controller with a big screen, so I guess the 3DS would kind of get a similar function here?  Perhaps to reward 3DS owners with not having to purchase an additional Wii U screen controller?

I definitely agree with the things he said about the "volume" of the game.  At this point, more would be less.
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Offline Ezlo's Apprentice

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« #9 on: April 27, 2012 »

That's all swell, as long as they don't make the advantage of having a 3DS to important.  Many people don't have one, and also many people don't wish to ruin the 3DS's precious touch screen

At last count, 17.5million people have a 3DS. Sure, it's not DS level yet but that's pretty good going a year into its life cycle.

I am keeping my expectations low on this one. There was such immense hype for Brawl, the Emissary, everything about it. It didn't meet those expectations. Sakurai could easily be playing down what he has planned. But I for one would like a greater range of characters and a return to classic achievements based unlockable ways of obtaining them. Getting them all in the Emissary felt like such a cheap way, and I have hardly revisited the game to unlock statues, stickers, etc.

And, if they're going to get third parties involved, they need to make it a decent mix or not bother at all. So much hype when Sonic and Snake where unveiled. Who else was coming? No one.

In terms of connectivity between 3DS and Wii U, I'm wondering if some sort of Street Pass mechanic similar to the weapon gems in Kid Icarus is a possibility. Bring weapons from friends/strangers into the main game. Or perhaps a figure battle mode akin to that seen in Street Fighter.
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Offline Ezlo's Apprentice

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« #10 on: June 22, 2012 »

With Nintendo's latest Direct video presentations came the first concrete information about the upcoming fourth and fifth entries in the Super Smash Bros. franchise since the E3 2011 confirmation it would be split over 3DS and WiiU. The scale of the project has led to Nintendo enlisting the help of Namco Bandai Games and Namco Bandai Studios.

Series creator and Nintendo retrophile, Masahiro Sakurai remains in charge as director. The following statements were released alongside the news, from Sakurai and Namco Bandai's Masaya Kobayashi:

Quote from: Sakurai
Hello, I'm Masahiro Sakurai, the director of the Super Smash Bros. series.

It's my personal belief that the only time a creative product really resonates is in that first moment when it's actually in front of you.

With that said, I've realized that if we keep the new Super Smash Bros. title's development structure secret, it'll only create more and more speculation, and I won't be able to develop the game with any freedom. That's why I've decided to announce this news right now, even though it's still very early on.

I would love to provide more information, but for now, I'm going to stay quiet until I have something solid to show you.

The project has just gotten started. Bear in mind that not only are we developing two titles simultaneously, but we announced the project before we even started actual development, so I'm afraid we will likely have to keep you waiting for quite a while. Please be patient.

Currently, the prototype prepared by NAMCO BANDAI Games and NAMCO BANDAI Studios' special team looks pretty good, and it's working great. In order to take advantage of the fact that there will be versions for two different systems, and to maximize and offer fun new gameplay elements, the entire team is going to work hard together. Thank you.

Quote from: Kobayashi
Hello, everyone. I'm Masaya Kobayashi of NAMCO BANDAI Studios. I'm so honored to be able to join the Smash Bros. team--that globally popular series of which Japan is particularly proud—and to work alongside of Mr. Sakurai.

In order to make Mr. Sakurai proud, we will take on this project with NAMCO BANDAI's best staff! Yoshito Higuchi, the producer and the director of the "Tales" series, Tetsuya Akatsuka, producer and director of "Mobile Suit Gundam: Extreme Vs.," the art director/sound director of the "SoulCalibur" series, the main development team staff from the "TEKKEN" series…and that's just for starters. All the top creators from NAMCO BANDAI are gathered here to create a never-before-seen dream team for this project. We will fully utilize our experience and knowledge in action/fighting game development, technical capability, and organizational strength, and we hereby promise you that we will develop the best and most powerful "Super Smash Bros." title ever! Don't miss it!

Representative works:

Masaya Kobayashi
"Ridge Racer" series
"We Ski" (Wii) series
"Go Vacation" (Wii)


Yoshito Higuchi
"SoulCalibur" series
"Tales of the Abyss"
"Tales of Vesperia"

So, how does everyone feel about the move to another studio for Smash Bros? Could it be the fresh impetus the series needs? If nothing else, we can likely anticipate at least one third-party newcomer. Wakka-wakka.
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Offline hisak

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« #11 on: June 22, 2012 »

NoA's presentation tricked me into thinking there would be a trailer shown.

I'm totally on board with bringing on an already-assembled team for Smash Bros. Project Sora is too small to develop two Smash Bros. games within reasonable time, and I also get the sense that taking people from other first-party developers helped contribute to the Great Wii Drought of 2009. Good for them for figuring out a solution.

Now I don't really have a solid opinion on Namco Bandai being the developer. I've seen people speculating/hoping that the roster will be the most balanced of any Smash Bros. game, which would be a welcome change. Aside from that, I don't think the series is in great need of "fresh impetus," but it'll be interesting to see how it turns out. If they're talking about it this early, might we see some actual footage before the year is out? Fingers crossed.
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