Zelda Needs Change.

[Kee Something]

I am a bit disappointing in the path that Aonuma is taking thr Zelda series.  First he does something truly unique like Majora's Mask, but since then, he has just been trying to re-create Ocarina of Time.  Both Wind Waker and Twilight Princess follow the same structure of OoT and ALttP and it makes everything far to predictable.  Without going into to much detail about that, I'd like to make a list of ideas that may refresh the series since it seems to be relying too much on the past to keep it going for the future.  Here are ideas I have for Zelda Wii that could refresh and reinvent the series:

1) A completely new Link (adult or young or both)! Link always has the same backstory, why not try something new? What if he was once a knight or a war hero (if Nintendo did another adult Link)? What if Link was a young prince that wanted to escape his kingdom from the pressure of being a celebrity? Maybe those are lame examples, but anything is better than the same old

2) A new type of plot that is very unique to the series like Majora's Mask. Forget about Hyrule's history, forget about the Triforce, forget about Ganondorf, and forget about the creation of Hyrule. Put Link in a new land that is so unique that it makes Hyrule look extreme stock to the point where it is hard to go back to. I'll go into more detail of the overworld later.

3) Dungeons are not the only way to progress through the game! TP touched on this, but never got ambitious enough. What I mean by this is there will be many boss battles taking place on the overworld or in the sky.

4) There will be a wide array of dungeons and temples that come in all different styles and sizes. Some dungeons would be optional, others would be part of the plot (and you don't have to ALWAYS collect artifaxts from them; why not just complete a dungeon simply to defeat the boss?). Also, it would be nice if Nintendo gave you a reason to go back to dungeons you already beat. As we all know, most Zelda games give you an item in the dungeons, and your rarely use it again. What if you could go back to older dungeons and solve optional puzzles that lead to secret towns or tunnels by using an item you got in a later dungeon?

5) No more tutoral dungeons! In both TP and WW, you get the dungeon item, and you use that in only that dungeon and rarely use it again. Instead, the game should introduce items outside of dungeons and assume that you have the skills to use them in the dungeons (like Hylian Dan said in one of his posts). An example of this is Majora's Mask. All the new items that drastically change gameplay (like the Deku, Zora, and Goron Masks, the hookshot, etc.) are given to your outside of dungeons. That way, the dungeons don't feel like tutorals because they assume that you already know how to use the items, and throw challenging puzzles at you that require them.

6) No major Ganondorf, Master Sword, Hero of Time, or Triforce references (though, cameos and nods are fine). This game needs to make you forget about ALttP and OoT, and do something better.

7) Zelda would be in it, but she would have to play a new role. I really liked how Nintendo made her sort of a teammate in OoT (Shiek), but I think it would be even better if she fought along side you in some dungeons or boss battles jsut because she wants to help you out.

8) Optional character relationships. Majora's Mask really did a good job of this, but this idea can be expanded (MM is over 6 years old now). Why not do this with main characters. For example: what if the more you talked or did quests for Zelda, the more she would help you out in battles.

9) Massive amounts of sidequests and minigames that exceed Majora's Mask in number and quality.

10) A non-linear plot that may have multiple endings. This way, the plot can be very deep while not limiting the sense of exploration (like in TP).

11) Challenging enemies! The enemies in the 3D Zeldas are jokes (with the exception of some minibosses in OoT, and several enemies in MM). Nintendo needs to stop catering to non-gamers, and give the hardcore gamers a challenge! Zelda needs enemies that are unpredictable, work together, relentless with attacks, and deal a good ammount of damage! No one attacks that deal 1/4 damage, they may as well deal nothing. Weak enemies should do 1/2 (Chu Chus), medium enemies should be doing 1 1/2 (Deku Babas), strong enemies should do 3 hearts (Stalfos), and bosses should be dealing 5-6 hearts of damage.

12) No more Boss Puzzle Battles! When I fight a boss, give me a fight! Don't make me solve a puzzle while all the boss itself does is defend its weak point; it makes the battle way too predfictable, and it takes the danger out of it. Instead, give us bosses that actually *try* to kill us while being completely unpredictable and relentless at attacking. Zant is a perfect example of how boss battles should be!

13) Difficulty Setting. If Nintendo insists on downgrading the challenge for Zelda newbies, they can while still giving the hardcore gamers a challenging with the help of this feature. It's simple, there should be an Easy, Medium, and Hard mode. With each increasing difficulty, the enemies will be greater in number, will deeal more damage, and will attack more often. Also, they can switch up the puzzles to make them harder with each setting.


14) I also think mini-levels like Ikana Castle, Gerudo Fortress, Beneath the Well, and Gerudo Training Ground have so much potential that is yet to be reached. They add variety to the game, and gives you a breath of fresh air since they are less predictable. In a main dungeon, you already know how it will all fold out; you need to fight the mini-boss, get the dungeon item, find the Big Key, then fight the boss using your dungeon item to get the heart container and the artifact you need to progress the game. With mini-dungeons, you don't even know for sure if you'll find a boss there! You don't know what you'll see or do there because they do not follow a strict formula like the main dungeons.

I think the next Zelda should focus a lot of scattering mini-dungeons around the world, that way, you don't know when you'll find the next "main-dungeon". As for the main dungeons themselves, Nintendo shouldn't make them the only way to progress through the game. How about fighting a boss in a town? How about going through a dungeon strictly to get to the other side? How about beating a boss just to free an area from evil, rather than beating one to get the artifact?

To conclude this post, Aonuma is trying to hard to re-create Ocarina of Time to do anything new or creative like he once did with Majora's Mask.  I think it would be best for the series to do something completely new so it doesn't suffer from Megaman-syndrome.


What are all your thoughts?


(By the way, I basically copied and pasted a few of my posts from a thread at Zelda Universe to make this massive post.)

EDIT: I deleted a few points (like the Pegasus and flying overworld) because they were admittinly ment for another thread.

[JordAnime]

1) A completely new Link (adult or young or both)! Link always has the same backstory,

Actually, in Twilight Princess he had no back story.

why not try something new? What if he was once a knight or a war hero (if Nintendo did another adult Link)? What if Link was a young prince that wanted to escape his kingdom from the pressure of being a celebrity?

What if Link were a woman!?   

The idea of Zelda is that you start out inexperienced and faced with a daunting world, it ends with you becoming something of a master of said realm thus defining character growth.  Personally, I prefer the blank slate Link.  That's not to say he always has to end up riding off alone into the sunset, but I think too much back story might hurt the notion of Link.

2) A new type of plot that is very unique to the series like Majora's Mask. Forget about Hyrule's history, forget about the Triforce, forget about Ganondorf, and forget about the creation of Hyrule.

I might agree with you there, I'm pulling for something totally new in terms of story with the next Zelda.

3) Replace the horse with a flying creature (like Pegasus).

Or just make the horse more viable than she was in Twilight Princess.  I was hoping for Epona to equal the King of Red Lions, but good, unforuntely she was really only used a few times impartively, and other than that she's only good for doing a few laps around Hyrule.

4) Two overworlds:

Oh yeah, that's really a big departure, it's not like there hasn't been a dark world, a world in the future, and a world shrowded in Twilight in Zelda.

One on land, and one in the sky. Like Wind Waker, there would be islands, but the islands would be in the sky (like Skies of Arcadia). To keep things interesting, you would have to deal with weather, flying dragons (and many more enemies), and etc. on the back of Pegasus (Nintendo could rename it).

An interesting concept, but it's extremely specific.  I think the crux of your article so far is that "I think I could do a better job of designing Zelda than Nintendo and here's my plan" rather than "instead of doing this, perhaps they should focus more on the other thing". 

Also, it would be nice if Nintendo gave you a reason to go back to dungeons you already beat.

But then everyone would bitch about backtracking.  ;-)

Twilight Princess touched on this a bit with pieces of heart in the dungeons, but I think that was part of the reason why there were less sidequests/overworld puzzles in the game. 

7) No more tutoral dungeons! In both TP and WW, you get the dungeon item, and you use that in only that dungeon and rarely use it again.

I wouldn't call it a tutorial aspect so much as a gameplay aspect that is used in one location but seldom used again.  I'm fine with using an item a lot in a dungeon but I think what'd actually work better would be making the last dungeon/s a lot longer and harder than the last dungeons, as opposed to just being a nice "ride" to the final boss.  This was how it was in every Zelda until OoT, but even OoT had something of a "revisiting the dungeons" aspect to it, I think it worked better in those earlier titles.

9) Zelda would be in it, but she would have to play a new role. I really liked how Nintendo made her sort of a teammate in OoT (Shiek), but I think it would be even better if she fought along side you in some dungeons or boss battles jsut because she wants to help you out.

She helped out at the end of Twilight Princess and The Wind Waker if memory serves, but I agree, she should have  a bigger role.

13) Challenging enemies!

Then the masses will complain it's too hard.  I think a nice compromise would be optional difficulty levels ala, just about every other game out there.

14) No more Boss Puzzle Battles! When I fight a boss, give me a fight! Don't make me solve a puzzle while all the boss itself does is defend its weak point; it makes the battle way too predictable, and it takes the danger out of it. Instead, give us bosses that actually *try* to kill us while being completely unpredictable and relentless at attacking.

Completely disagree there, all the best bosses are likes action packed puzzles.

To conclude this post, Aonuma is trying to hard to re-create Ocarina of Time to do anything new or creative like he once did with Majora's Mask.  I think it would be best for the series to do something completely new so it doesn't suffer from Megaman-syndrome.

Zelda isn't anywhere near having symptoms of the kind of banality of the Mega Man franchise.  Nintendo always finds some way of keeping things fresh. 

Ultimately, what your asking for is a "pie in the sky" game.  Yeah, it'd be great if there were a Zelda game with all the subquests of Majora's Mask, all the dungeons of A Link to the Past, and so on, but these games cost money and take time to make.  Remember the gap between A Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time?  People got antsy when Twilight Princess was delayed, Ocarina of Time didn't come out until seven years after A Link to the Past.  Honestly, we just don't have that kind of patients anymore, so we see more Zelda games now-a-days, but we also see the growing pains of the series.

I think it's a good thing because more games means that the developers learn more, hone their skills and create a better experience, and we get to enjoy them more often. 

I agree, the series does need to change, and Nintendo knows it, and it does change, but if you keep "pie in the sky" notions of what Zelda should be, you'll never be satisfied.

[Kee Something]

What if Link were a woman!?   

The idea of Zelda is that you start out inexperienced and faced with a daunting world, it ends with you becoming something of a master of said realm thus defining character growth.  Personally, I prefer the blank slate Link.  That's not to say he always has to end up riding off alone into the sunset, but I think too much back story might hurt the notion of Link.

I'm not too sure.  Changing the gender of Link would defiantly cause a riot, but if Nintendo could do something unique and and make it work, then maybe it would be fine.

An interesting concept, but it's extremely specific.  I think the crux of your article so far is that "I think I could do a better job of designing Zelda than Nintendo and here's my plan" rather than "instead of doing this, perhaps they should focus more on the other thing". 

I was being extra specific about the flying creature and sky overworld because I was originally going to develope that into a seperate thread... I got carried away.  Just look at it as an example.

But then everyone would bitch about backtracking.  ;-)

Not if it was optional and the dungeons were interesting enough where you'd wanna go back.

Twilight Princess touched on this a bit with pieces of heart in the dungeons, but I think that was part of the reason why there were less sidequests/overworld puzzles in the game. 

True.  Heart pieces should have never been in the dungeons in TP.  Instead, there should have been more minigames and sidequests.

I wouldn't call it a tutorial aspect so much as a gameplay aspect that is used in one location but seldom used again.  I'm fine with using an item a lot in a dungeon but I think what'd actually work better would be making the last dungeon/s a lot longer and harder than the last dungeons, as opposed to just being a nice "ride" to the final boss.  This was how it was in every Zelda until OoT, but even OoT had something of a "revisiting the dungeons" aspect to it, I think it worked better in those earlier titles.

I agree that the final dungeons in Zelda games should be longer and require you to use all your skills you have learned, but I think all dungeons should have you master all your items to get through like Majora's Mask did.

Then the masses will complain it's too hard.  I think a nice compromise would be optional difficulty levels ala, just about every other game out there.

Yes, I believe I stated that Zelda should have a difficulty setting.

Completely disagree there, all the best bosses are likes action packed puzzles.

But the battles are far too predictable and formulaic.  The bosses don't even try to kill you, rather, they jsut defend their weak point in which you musy hit three times.  Bosses should require you to actually try and fight instead of just waiting for the weak point to open up so you can solve the puzzle.

Zelda isn't anywhere near having symptoms of the kind of banality of the Mega Man franchise.  Nintendo always finds some way of keeping things fresh. 

I disagree.  Twilight Princess was anything but fresh.  It was basically Ocarina of Time, but the landmarks were far more undeveloped.

Ultimately, what your asking for is a "pie in the sky" game.  Yeah, it'd be great if there were a Zelda game with all the subquests of Majora's Mask, all the dungeons of A Link to the Past, and so on, but these games cost money and take time to make.  Remember the gap between A Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time?  People got antsy when Twilight Princess was delayed, Ocarina of Time didn't come out until seven years after A Link to the Past.  Honestly, we just don't have that kind of patients anymore, so we see more Zelda games now-a-days, but we also see the growing pains of the series.

So, you are saying Nintendo should rush all their Zelda games to please the fans with mediocre Zelda games?  Sorry, I'd rather wait for something much better.
I think it's a good thing because more games means that the developers learn more, hone their skills and create a better experience, and we get to enjoy them more often. 

I agree, the series does need to change, and Nintendo knows it, and it does change, but if you keep "pie in the sky" notions of what Zelda should be, you'll never be satisfied.


[/quote]

[Lolita]

I agree Zelda need some serious changes... Of course I would miss the old story with Hyrule and Ganon but, if they do it right, we will like it as much.

Personally, I LOVED MM because it was different but kept the Zelda games elements. What I really missed from the game was the feel of threat and fear that Majora puts on us. I really liked also that the characters had a life and problems to solve... It was pretty much rewarding. The dongeons were fantastic! Oh and Majora's Mask was a rushed game but it turned out very good! Nintendo should consider taking a look at that game and try to bring back some elements from it.

About the difficulty thing, they should either give an option or make it harder. If the mass complains the game's too hard, well who cares? Zelda isn't meant to be a casual player's game. It's one thing I don't like is that I don't seem to die often in the newer Zelda... Even today, when I replay at ALttP, I still find it difficult but I enjoy it because it gives me a challenge, but isn't impossible.

[maddysageofhyrule]

some of these i agree with some i do not. First. Do not get rid of the Triforce story. I hated MM so dont bug me. Second. Link should stay. Third. Do not kill Epona. and finally Do not revamp the bosses. I love the puzzle aspect its what zelda is made for. Puzzles. I do agree with the 2 worlds thing and the eniemies

[Hyruleansoldier]

3) Replace the horse with a flying creature (like Pegasus).

The problem is: the moment you have a viable means of warping (be that ocarina songs or “just asking Midna”), Epona loses her functionality.  This was obviously different for the KoRL because you kinda depended on him to sail all around the world.

4) Two overworlds:

I definitely agree here. Though the concept is hardly refreshing, it has worked for all Zelda’s to date.  Past/Present/Future, Light Wworld/Dark World/Twilight Realm,… 

I personally favour the Dark World mechanic the most, as you could travel between both worlds, which are very much related.  OoA was quite good in this as well, though a little too often the world in the Present was drastically different from that in the past.  Interesting of course, but the gameplay which revolves around chancing things to affect the other “half” always packs out very well.

should focus more on the other thing". 

Also, it would be nice if Nintendo gave you a reason to go back to dungeons you already beat.

Hell yes.  TP had this one chest in the Goron Mines for which you needed the Clawshot.  Sadly, the reward was a lousy 50 rupees.  Not even one of them boring 100 rupee chests.  But the idea was right.  Now if they had put a heart piece in there, I’d have been satisfied.

Anyone remember MM?  The Stray Fairies quest?  In Snowpeak you totally needed the Hookshot to get most of them, and playing that dungeon *with* the hookshot also really opened up a lot of new ways to go about it, to beat it.  That was truly refreshing.

And to counter JA’s argument: yes, some people hate backtracking, but my examples are not about anything you really NEED to beat the game…  So anything optional (like most sidequests), is very welcome.  Make us go back to previous dungeons!  This was very much true for OoT, with the Gold Skulltula quest…

[Faceless]

I agree Zelda needs to change, but I don't like m/any of the changes you propose.

Nintendo always finds some way of keeping things fresh.

Pokemon *cough*

[The Tao Of Bill]

I'm not a fan of Zelda bosses at all...

They are far too predictable.

It's like "Okay I got the boomerang in this dungeon so there is a 99.9% chance I will need to boomerang to kill him"

Item specific bosses are really lame because you know exactly what item you need. Its the one you just got. Boss puzzles are fine. They add to the action. But they aren't interesting if you already know the answer to the puzzle before you even get to the boss.

[Haru to Ashura]

Hmm.  No.  Some of those suggestions just sound like fanfic material, honestly.

1) Doesn't need to be changed, because it has little effect on the actual plot and gameplay.

4) Zelda's a fantasy game, but it's not TOO out there, remember.  Floating islands?  This isnt' Magic Knight Rayearth!  I like Zelda because it's fantasical realms are actually slightly believable.  That idea is somewhat ridiculous, and also, it could be percieved as too similar to Super Mario Galaxy.  Keep your feet on the ground, kiddo.

3) No way.  That would make it too easy to travel around the entire map.  How on earth would they block hidden areas?  That idea would spoil the entire game; it makes the game way too easy.

5) Battles outside of a dungeon are cool, but TP had plenty of those, fyi.

9) I'm all for female empowerment, but some of that just sounds a little cheesy.  Zelda there helping you for dungeon fights?  Again, considerably subtracts from difficulty level.  Yes, she should have a bigger role, but not an active fighting role.  Smells like CI-i - ewww.


Overall, I think Nintendo can delivery solid non-triforce/canon story games and canon-story games as well, and they should do both.  Switch around from time to time.  In my opinion, the biggest thing Zelda lacks is creative/complex character development, and if you were to solve that, everything else would fall into place quite nicely.

[Ezlo's Apprentice]

It was hard to take the rest of this article seriously after (3). Sorry.

[Haru to Ashura]

It was hard to take the rest of this article seriously after (3). Sorry.

Lol, he even made a banner for it.  I think you're taking yourself a little too seriously, Kee.

[Kee Something]

Hmm.  No.  Some of those suggestions just sound like fanfic material, honestly.

Just the Pegasus and floating island suggestions.  I admit, I shouldn't have put them in my post.  The rest of my post is going somewhere, I promise.

4) Zelda's a fantasy game, but it's not TOO out there, remember.  Floating islands?  This isnt' Magic Knight Rayearth!  I like Zelda because it's fantasical realms are actually slightly believable.  That idea is somewhat ridiculous, and also, it could be percieved as too similar to Super Mario Galaxy.  Keep your feet on the ground, kiddo.

Funny, I thought there was a place in Twilight Princess called "City in the Sky", even if it was extremely underdeveloped (even if it was just a dungeon).

5) Battles outside of a dungeon are cool, but TP had plenty of those, fyi.

"Plenty"?  You really just have two with the Bulblin Chief and Ganondorf, and they were short and far from reaching the epic scale of the battles seen in the early trailers if you ask me.  This idea could be greatly expanded upon.

9) I'm all for female empowerment, but some of that just sounds a little cheesy.  Zelda there helping you for dungeon fights?  Again, considerably subtracts from difficulty level.  Yes, she should have a bigger role, but not an active fighting role.  Smells like CI-i - ewww.

I was just giving examples of how she could have a bigger/different role.  Then, I brought up a Shiek type role.

Overall, I think Nintendo can delivery solid non-triforce/canon story games and canon-story games as well, and they should do both.  Switch around from time to time.  In my opinion, the biggest thing Zelda lacks is creative/complex character development, and if you were to solve that, everything else would fall into place quite nicely.

Majora's Mask really was the only game to have complex NPC, but this idea should be expanded on.  Other things that need to change, I think, is the linear dungeons and gameplay.  TMC and TP are by far the most linear games in the series.  Areas like Death Mountain and Faron woods are straight paths to the dungeons, and the dungeons themselves are extremely linear compaired to the past games.

It was hard to take the rest of this article seriously after (3). Sorry.

Read the later points.  I think I actually hit on some important issues.

Lol, he even made a banner for it.  I think you're taking yourself a little too seriously, Kee.

Naw, I was just fooling around with PhotoImpact last night.  I was going to make a new sig, but it evolved into a banner.  Lol!

[Haru to Ashura]

Hmm.  No.  Some of those suggestions just sound like fanfic material, honestly.

Just the Pegasus and floating island suggestions.  I admit, I shouldn't have put them in my post.  The rest of my post is going somewhere, I promise.

4) Zelda's a fantasy game, but it's not TOO out there, remember.  Floating islands?  This isnt' Magic Knight Rayearth!  I like Zelda because it's fantasical realms are actually slightly believable.  That idea is somewhat ridiculous, and also, it could be percieved as too similar to Super Mario Galaxy.  Keep your feet on the ground, kiddo.

Funny, I thought there was a place in Twilight Princess called "City in the Sky", even if it was extremely underdeveloped (even if it was just a dungeon).

5) Battles outside of a dungeon are cool, but TP had plenty of those, fyi.

"Plenty"?  You really just have two with the Bulblin Chief and Ganondorf, and they were short and far from reaching the epic scale of the battles seen in the early trailers if you ask me.  This idea could be greatly expanded upon.

9) I'm all for female empowerment, but some of that just sounds a little cheesy.  Zelda there helping you for dungeon fights?  Again, considerably subtracts from difficulty level.  Yes, she should have a bigger role, but not an active fighting role.  Smells like CI-i - ewww.

I was just giving examples of how she could have a bigger/different role.  Then, I brought up a Shiek type role.

re: 4) - Yeah, and now you can guess which area of the game I liked least...!  Haha. Well, it was a civilization of bird people who supposable descended from the Gods.  There's some thought put behind it.  Random floating landmasses sounds a) silly, and more importantly, b) too much like a platformer game.

re: 5) - Hmm.  Okay, I suppose it could be expanded on.  But in comparison to past Zelda games, TP was a damn good start in terms of...uh, 'non-dungeon boss battles.'

re: 9) - The problem is, Zelda games need, to a more or less extent, to fit into the 'hero's quest' story archtype.  And to fit into that archtype, Link needs to be the lone hero, and anyone who fights alongside him must automatically be demoted to sidekick status (yes, even midna) in order to demonstrate him as the main player and as the lone hero.  If Zelda where to so much as travel with Link, she too would be demonted to sidekick status - and in my book, Zelda is much more than a sidekick. 

To modernize her role would be difficult.  Perhaps if you were able to communicate with Zelda in a way similar to how you communicated with Saria in OoT? (I refer to Saria's song.  Only, with better NPC responces and intelligence.)

[JordAnime]

If Zelda where to so much as travel with Link, she too would be demonted to sidekick status - and in my book, Zelda is much more than a sidekick.

Honestly, she's either a damsel in distress or the occasional helper outer in some points; her role in TP was pretty much a cameo. 

As for being a side kick, there's several alternatives; she could also be escorted in like in RE4, or a completely competent second player you can switch to like in RE0. 

[Python]

As for being a side kick, there's several alternatives; she could also be escorted in like in RE4, or a completely competent second player you can switch to like in RE0. 

If Zelda is to be escorted I hope she won't as helpless as Ashley was...

I'm not sure about the character switching either. It just doesn't seem right to me. But if it's done well, then why not!

[Hyruleansoldier]

If Zelda where to so much as travel with Link, she too would be demonted to sidekick status - and in my book, Zelda is much more than a sidekick.

Honestly, she's either a damsel in distress or the occasional helper outer in some points; her role in TP was pretty much a cameo. 

As for being a side kick, there's several alternatives; she could also be escorted in like in RE4, or a completely competent second player you can switch to like in RE0. 

I hate to tell you this JA, but Zelda is not and will never be a (T)PS...  I love them Shooters just as much as the next bloke, but you can't expect to get the best of both worlds with a series that has been born an RPG/Adventure game, and an RPG/Adventure game it will die...

I do encourage more Zelda in Zelda, as has been thoroughly discussed in other threads.  As is the importance of nature of sidekicks.

There have been only a few important episodes that have already done something that can be described as either escorting or co-upping.

1) Link escorting Zelda in the ALttP Castle Dungeon, which is both saving, her giving you clues and helping you, and safely making it out.

2) Link escorting Tetra in TWW, which is hardly mention-worthy.  She's basically not much more than Link carrying the Deku Princess (in a friggin' bottle ) from Woodfall to the Deku Throne Room.

As far as co-upping is concerned, there was the major sidequest of Anju & Kafei in MM.  At 6 PM on the Final Day, you have to work together with Kafei to beat some smal-room puzzles in order to stop the conveyor belt.  Though a small episode, it did show us the potential of puzzle-co-upping, which has of course been "perfected" in FS & FSA, which is perhaps the reason why Nintendo have not considered putting anything like that in the fully-blown 3-D adventures: they already have the multi-person gameplay in the FS series...  Yes, even though it's not EXACTLY the same as co-upping - it's basically the same Link right? - but then it might easily have been different heroes (only that would spoil things I'd think).

On any level, it *would* still be cool to have worthy, unique co-up buddy, which would also have some actual function in the story, like someone who temporarily has the same goals as Link...  Something worth investigating.

[Be_yourself]

1) A completely new Link (adult or young or both)! Link always has the same backstory, why not try something new? What if he was once a knight or a war hero (if Nintendo did another adult Link)? What if Link was a young prince that wanted to escape his kingdom from the pressure of being a celebrity? Maybe those are lame examples, but anything is better than the same old

Agree

2) A new type of plot that is very unique to the series like Majora's Mask. Forget about Hyrule's history, forget about the Triforce, forget about Ganondorf, and forget about the creation of Hyrule. Put Link in a new land that is so unique that it makes Hyrule look extreme stock to the point where it is hard to go back to. I'll go into more detail of the overworld later.

Agree

3) Dungeons are not the only way to progress through the game! TP touched on this, but never got ambitious enough. What I mean by this is there will be many boss battles taking place on the overworld or in the sky.

A bit of unpredictability and flexiblity would go well, my favourite parts of Zelda is the overworld and NPC interaction parts of the quests which were done so well in MM.

4) There will be a wide array of dungeons and temples that come in all different styles and sizes. Some dungeons would be optional, others would be part of the plot (and you don't have to ALWAYS collect artifaxts from them; why not just complete a dungeon simply to defeat the boss?). Also, it would be nice if Nintendo gave you a reason to go back to dungeons you already beat. As we all know, most Zelda games give you an item in the dungeons, and your rarely use it again. What if you could go back to older dungeons and solve optional puzzles that lead to secret towns or tunnels by using an item you got in a later dungeon?

I agree, like i said before, the predictability needs to go, i don't mind so much about going back to old dungeons, i don't enjoy dungeons that much compared to the overworld.

5) No more tutoral dungeons! In both TP and WW, you get the dungeon item, and you use that in only that dungeon and rarely use it again. Instead, the game should introduce items outside of dungeons and assume that you have the skills to use them in the dungeons (like Hylian Dan said in one of his posts). An example of this is Majora's Mask. All the new items that drastically change gameplay (like the Deku, Zora, and Goron Masks, the hookshot, etc.) are given to your outside of dungeons. That way, the dungeons don't feel like tutorals because they assume that you already know how to use the items, and throw challenging puzzles at you that require them.

items should be used all over the overworld, not just in a dungeon, i don't view those levels as tutorials but i think you highlight a much bigger issue which was mainly prevelant in TP, the limitedness of the items.

6) No major Ganondorf, Master Sword, Hero of Time, or Triforce references (though, cameos and nods are fine). This game needs to make you forget about ALttP and OoT, and do something better.

yes, i wouldn't mind it if they did a really good G,Z and Link story that just had them, but adding random characters and stories in attempts to make it fresh, coff Midna, is just not going to work, its like saying blue is new because its not green, their still colours...

7) Zelda would be in it, but she would have to play a new role. I really liked how Nintendo made her sort of a teammate in OoT (Shiek), but I think it would be even better if she fought along side you in some dungeons or boss battles jsut because she wants to help you out.

Zelda having a proper role would be good, figuring out a way to include her other then in the triforce quest will take some effort so it doesn't seem convinient and forced.

8) Optional character relationships. Majora's Mask really did a good job of this, but this idea can be expanded (MM is over 6 years old now). Why not do this with main characters. For example: what if the more you talked or did quests for Zelda, the more she would help you out in battles.

i don't really get what you are saying here, but i don't want Zelda to help me with battles

9) Massive amounts of sidequests and minigames that exceed Majora's Mask in number and quality.

of course, but they can only do so much, and this won't really affect the freshness of it.

10) A non-linear plot that may have multiple endings. This way, the plot can be very deep while not limiting the sense of exploration (like in TP).

A less linear plot, that is less guided(eg:midna, go here go there blah blah or whoever decided to tell you where to go next) things should not always have to happen when and where Nintendo tells us they should, in fact Nintendo shouldn't even have an assistant to hold our hands we should do it ourselves.
no to multiple endings though

11) Challenging enemies! The enemies in the 3D Zeldas are jokes (with the exception of some minibosses in OoT, and several enemies in MM). Nintendo needs to stop catering to non-gamers, and give the hardcore gamers a challenge! Zelda needs enemies that are unpredictable, work together, relentless with attacks, and deal a good ammount of damage! No one attacks that deal 1/4 damage, they may as well deal nothing. Weak enemies should do 1/2 (Chu Chus), medium enemies should be doing 1 1/2 (Deku Babas), strong enemies should do 3 hearts (Stalfos), and bosses should be dealing 5-6 hearts of damage.

yeah, get the combat system out of 1998, innovate it, and make the enemies worth fighting and god...those bosses, TP and TWW were unbelieveably pathetic...

12) No more Boss Puzzle Battles! When I fight a boss, give me a fight! Don't make me solve a puzzle while all the boss itself does is defend its weak point; it makes the battle way too predfictable, and it takes the danger out of it. Instead, give us bosses that actually *try* to kill us while being completely unpredictable and relentless at attacking. Zant is a perfect example of how boss battles should be!

some boss puzzle aspects should be kept, as it makes them more livly and interesting then just slashing them with your sword...but atm they are just easy puzzles, make them hard to actually beat once you figure out how to...

13) Difficulty Setting. If Nintendo insists on downgrading the challenge for Zelda newbies, they can while still giving the hardcore gamers a challenging with the help of this feature. It's simple, there should be an Easy, Medium, and Hard mode. With each increasing difficulty, the enemies will be greater in number, will deeal more damage, and will attack more often. Also, they can switch up the puzzles to make them harder with each setting.

yes its a good idea, but think of the developers who have to make 3 times the amount of puzzles now...its pretty hard work

14) I also think mini-levels like Ikana Castle, Gerudo Fortress, Beneath the Well, and Gerudo Training Ground have so much potential that is yet to be reached. They add variety to the game, and gives you a breath of fresh air since they are less predictable. In a main dungeon, you already know how it will all fold out; you need to fight the mini-boss, get the dungeon item, find the Big Key, then fight the boss using your dungeon item to get the heart container and the artifact you need to progress the game. With mini-dungeons, you don't even know for sure if you'll find a boss there! You don't know what you'll see or do there because they do not follow a strict formula like the main dungeons.

as before, unpredictability, zelda is too predictable now...



To conclude this post, Aonuma is trying to hard to re-create Ocarina of Time to do anything new or creative like he once did with Majora's Mask.  I think it would be best for the series to do something completely new so it doesn't suffer from Megaman-syndrome.

I think you don't give TWW enough credit, it had many innovations but just suffered from some inexperienced game design eg:tedious sailing, sea being massive with many tiny islands when it would have been much better with few large interesting islands...

[Shin Illuminated]

Sigh...just another case of people judging the series based on one game. This has been happening too much.

One. Friggin'. Game.

[Fluesopp]

Everything have been said..
The only thing I would like to add is that enemies don't behave normaly!
Take Ganondorf in TP. I was fighting him and explecting him to be a swordfighter. But all he does is to kick me, jump up landing behind me and slash. And then he waits for about half a minute before doing something else. TWW Ganon was better there, but still, all he did was to repeat a sword swinging pose. Battles have to little intencity. You expect them to try and kill you, but they are just waiting for you to kill them. Lame.
What they should be doing is to make the attact more frequent. A monster jumping around me and just slash me once in a while is too boring. Bring us some better fighting AI!

[Assault on Mind]

Some parts I agree with you. But what you have to understand is today people want mindless hack n' slash and easy puzzles. I do however like to back track since I get bored with coming her and then going there. In OoT I explored every square inch of that game anywhere on the bottom of Lake Hylia and Hyrule fiels to Death Mountain and Lost Woods. But isn't PH not going to have anything to do with Ganon? Doesn't Link have a back story in that game? Isn't Zelda sort of gone and Hyrule too? Don't you have a giant sea to explore and Islands too? I also agree with bosses being more aaggressive example:

Giant stalfos with sword his weak spot is his back but he is constantly moving and attacking giving you little time to think because you are blocking attacks and finally by accident you step out of his view and this gives you a small opputunity to deal some damage. Not hold up your sheild wait for an attack then stab.

I said all I need to say.