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Author Topic: Can Ocarina of Time serve as the Imprisoning/Seal War?  (Read 1110 times)
Offline Erimgard

Patron Saint of Lost Causes
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Posts: 15


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« on: January 09, 2009 »

This thread is in response to this post:

[note, post has been trimmed down to only include necessary material]


Many sought to enter the
hidden Golden Land...
But none returned, and instead
evil power began to issue
forth from the dark portal...

Dark portal? People trying to get to the Sacred Realm? People getting trapped? I don't recall any bit of that happening in OoT. Ganon went in and split the Triforce between him, Zelda and Link and the Realm was closed after he entered it. In fact, the only way ever shown to enter it was by using the Master Sword.
Lets examine the next section.
Well, unfortunately, I do not have access to the Japanese translations right now, because ZeldaInformer is having server problems :/
However, I can tell you, and eventually provide the links to show, that the Japanese is not nearly as blunt in this statement. I'm not sure about the actual in-game telling of the Seal/Imprisoning War, but in the manual, it doesn't even state that anyone ever entered the Sacred Realm. The opposite is in fact implied.

Evil is indeed said to flow from the Sacred/Dark Realm but I'm fairly certain no mention of a portal is made. Also, in OoT, there is a clear connection between the temples and the Sacred/Dark Realm.

When you conquer a temple, a beam of light transports you to the Sacred Realm, proving their connection. We know that Ganon turned the Sacred Realm dark, and the temples are now flowing with evil. Given their apparent connection, that fits just fine with aLttP's tale of the Sacred Realm flowing with darkness.


So the king commanded seven
sages to seal the gate to
the land of the Golden Power.
Many brave knights were lost
in the battle to protect the
sages from the tides of evil,
but the seal was cast!

Most people didn't even know about the sages, so how there could be a legend of them makes no sense.
They built a stained-glass window shrine to them in Hyrule castle

The Knights of Hyrule were either never around OR they all got killed when Ganon took over. Not in a great battle to seal Ganon.
Ganon is stated to have assaulted Hyrule castle, and thus implied to kill the Knights, though granted, it was not at the exact time of the Sealing.

There wasn't even a king to command the seven sages to do anything.
Proof?


Plus there is no Link, no Master Sword, and virtually nothing besides the opening that even matches OoT.
Then by your logic, WW's backstory can't be talking about OoT.
It leaves out the Sages, Zelda, and the Sacred Realm.
aLttP leaves out Link and the Master Sword.

Why?
Because the Sages and their Seal aren't relevant to WW, because Ganon's outside of the Seal.
Link is not relevant to aLttP as it's a new Link we're playing as.

And the seal
would remain for all time...
Or so the people hoped...
But when these events were
obscured by the mists of
time, and became legend

Oh, you want to see what happens when OoT becomes a myth?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujEZQbBi2Yc
Huh. That doesn't make one mention of Zelda, the sages, or pretty much anything at all in the Imprisoning War. And to have AoL come after, with all the knowledge of Hyrule and a whole royal family, that has no logic in it at all.

Like I said earlier, WW shows that the Sages were remembered/honored in that they have a stained-glass window shrine to them in the castle...which Link and Zelda saw by the way.

And by the very quote you just provided, you've pretty much debunked your whole argument.  You're implying that if OoT and aLttP's backstory don't match up 100% they can't be the same event, yet the last line in that story is an admission that the events are not entirely accurate anymore. hmmm.

The main points still stand anyway:
-A doorway to the Sacred Realm was opened [check]
-The Sacred Realm began to flow with evil [check]
-Seven Sages had to seal it off [check]

Where/what is the Seal/Imprisoning War in your timeline? It would help me to understand where you're coming from if I knew your timeline, and what your beliefs on this event are.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009 by Erimgard » Logged

Offline Fairy penguin

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Sage of Light? Perhaps so. Sage of Darkness? Never


Posts: 908


« #1 on: January 11, 2009 »

I'm not really sure about my timeline, but probably before. I just like putting stuff before for some reason. I had defended one pretty well at The Desert Colossus, but I had AoL before OoT so it can't be right. It could also be after in Child Timeline, but not in Adult. The world is never unflooding. The KoH did wish on the Triforce for Hyrule to be forgotten and washed away.

We can see the exact portal that was used, which is very different than waht we saw in OoT.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HikgCicQV0

Did you see a king command any sages to do anything? Did you even see a king in OoT, or just Ganon bowing to him? Five sages, maybe six, (I'm not sure is Zelda knew she was a gaes at first) had no idea of thier roles, so a king commanding them just doesn't work. Any proof of him saying anything about sealing?

The intro says people aggresively fought to get into the SR. I saw no one fighting in OoT to get into the Sacred Realm. In fact, most people seemed to be just living their lives, or in fear of Ganon.

The game heavily implies people went in, as you have talking trees telling you they went in, a dinosour thingie, a ball with legs, and a village of people to support this. Plus the opening, "none were heard from again", or something similar.

Ganon actually killed the knights seven years earlier, so how they could have protected anyone from the grave years later makes no sense.

Also, TWW makes direct reference to OoT, like the stained glass windows as you said. It shows Link, but you're trying to imply that two almost entirely different legends are the same. Also, how do you fix the problem of Ganon getting out in TWW, when he only had the ToP to having him in LttP with the whole thing AND have him be the same one. As I recall being a rock with a sword stuck in your head doesn't give you the Triforce and doesn't get you in the SR, and it doesn't place the MS anywhere else.

Then by your logic, WW's backstory can't be talking about OoT.
It leaves out the Sages, Zelda, and the Sacred Realm.
aLttP leaves out Link and the Master Sword.

Why?
Because the Sages and their Seal aren't relevant to WW, because Ganon's outside of the Seal.
Link is not relevant to aLttP as it's a new Link we're playing as.

Yeah it can. It shows Link, shows Ganon coming out, describes very well what someone living then saw from their perspective. Also, I'm assuming you have LttP after PH. Now tell me logically how in one legend the name of Hyrule isn't even remembered. People don't even know what happened to Hyrule. So how can they just get all this knowledge of it and bring in many locations, the monarchy, all that history and knowledge, and have an almost entirely different history for the story that survived generations without any fanficing?

 
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Offline Erimgard

Patron Saint of Lost Causes
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Posts: 15


WWW
« #2 on: January 13, 2009 »

Did you see a king command any sages to do anything? Did you even see a king in OoT, or just Ganon bowing to him? Five sages, maybe six, (I'm not sure is Zelda knew she was a gaes at first) had no idea of thier roles, so a king commanding them just doesn't work. Any proof of him saying anything about sealing?
There would hypothetically be Six Sages at the start of Ocarina of Time. Twilight Princess has Six Sages that have been around since ancient times. I presume that Ganon/dorf killed them during his seven year reign, which is why Link is charged with the task of awakening new Sages.  Also, while it doesn't affect this particular debate all that much, I believe Daphnes from Wind Waker to be Ocarina of Time's king.

The intro says people aggresively fought to get into the SR. I saw no one fighting in OoT to get into the Sacred Realm. In fact, most people seemed to be just living their lives, or in fear of Ganon.
Again, if and when ZI ever gets its server problems worked out, I'll get you some Japanese translations. Those translations, coupled with the manual of the GBA release of aLttP tell the story in a different light.

I also belive the period when the people were searching for the Sacred Realm is the same period spoken of in Twilight Princess in Lanayru's story. The people turned against each other trying to find the Triforce, and eventually the Interlopers joined the fight as well. The Interlopers, of course, were sealed away by the Light Spirits. The rest of the fighting then ceased when the King of Hyrule unified the country [as the Deku Tree tells you he did when Link was a baby].

Thus:
Creation/Triforce in Sacred Realm-> Amonst the people/Interlopers-> Interlopers sealed->King unifies country

The manual for the GBA aLttP suggests that the Sacred Realm was not discovered or entered by anyone prior to the Seal War happening.

Now, as for how aLttP can exist at a time happening long after the Seal War...there are various things that can be looked at. It's true, Hyrule was wiped away in Wind Waker, with no indication of it ever deflooding...but that's no problem.

The Deku Tree and the Koroks stated that their plan is to unite all the islands together into one big landmass. Adventure of Link features Hyrule as two large islands, and a landmass to the west of them. Four Swords Adventures Hyrule is nearly identical to the map of aLttP, except that it's an island. Both indications that the Deku Tree and the Koroks succeeded.

You talk of the loss of knowledge/culture/etc that would come after WW...and it does. In aLttP, Hylian is a dead language, only readable via the Book of Mudora. AoL also talks about an "ancient language" that the scroll is written in. aLttP also states that the entrance to the Sacred Realm was fogotten, and Ganondorf was the one to rediscover it. The Japanese version phrases it slightly different in saying that the entrance was only passed down to a few select people, but at some point, even that process was interrupted. In both cases, the Sacred Realm is forgotten in aLttP until Ganondorf rediscovers it.


If you do not believe that the Seven Sages casting a Seal in Ocarina of Time is the Seal War, then how is the Sacred Realm sealed off in aLttP?
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Offline bastian

Goron
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Posts: 249


« #3 on: January 13, 2009 »

You guys are making this so complicated.

Yes, OoT is the backstory to ALttP. Obviously.

In ALttP backstory we learn about how Ganondorf entered the Sacred Realm and acquired the Triforce. In OoT we see this very same thing happening.

Yes, there are inconstancies. That is because the game developers didn't think we'd notice. They didn't imagine that fanatics like us would analyze ever single tiny thing and make a debate out of it. They just want to make interesting games. So, yes, they overlooked some things that make the two games not perfectly align. But they clearly meant them to.

Think of it this way: There are countless versions of the Arthurian legends. Some are certainly "more" correct than others (any which contain Lancelot are definitely less correct since he was an invented character in "recent" times). The same with these legends of Zelda (and Hyrule, et al) . . . There are radically different versions of the creation of Hyrule and the Triforce and the specifics of how Ganon obtained it and such, but they all point to a very simple story: the Goddesses created Hyrule and the Triforce, Ganondorf found his way into the Sacred Realm, he turned it into a Dark World, he wrecked havoc on Hyrule, he was Sealed inside it by the Sages, he used a wizard to open a door from there and was about to escape and wreck more havoc on Hyrule, but he was defeated therein. The end. (Until Z1 and AoL).


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Offline Lexxi Aileron

Fairy


Posts: 8


« #4 on: January 20, 2009 »

The Imprisoning War narrative, from the original Japanese SNES manual:

In the times long past, before man first emerged, the gods descended upon the world when it was nothing but chaos. Using their various abilities, they brought order and life to the world. The God[dess] of Power used [her] flame to dye the mountains red and made the earth. The God[dess] of Wisdom made science and magic, and awarded the land with natural order. And the God[dess] of Courage used the kindness of [her] strong heart, and created those which crawl on the earth, those which travel in the air, and all of the living creatures of the world.

After forming all that is, when it was time for them to depart this realm, the gods consummated the land with a symbol forged of their own power, in the form of a sacred, golden, triangle: the Triforce. Their course finally running to completion, the gods left the Triforce to govern this land. The Triforce, respectively: "one who would Conquer Power," "one who would Govern Wisdom," and "one who would Temper Courage" held three different emblems. It would shine in the Sacred Realm, somewhere in the world, until one who was worthy of inheriting those powers appeared.

Hyrule, where many Hylian relics have been left, is an area very much tied to myth. One such example is an old saying about the Triforce: "The golden power lies somewhere descended from the heavens. He who claims it as his own shall have their desires granted by the gods."

The people, seeking the Golden Power, began searching for the Sacred Realm. Many reports began to surface; lying beneath the relics of the desert, inside the graves of the race of people in the high mountains, but no one ever found it. Longing soon became greed, and it was not uncommon for blood to be spilt for certain information. The more carefree people had to live days of disquiet.

That is, until one day, completely by change, the entrance to the Sacred Realm was opened by a certain group of thieves. It was a world different from our own. The Triforce was there, casting a golden light in the midst of twilight. The group began to push one another aside and tried to press forward. After the bloody confrontation among comrades had ended, the victor was the leader of the group.

When the leader touched the Triforce, his hands stained in fresh blood, the emblems' spirits began to whisper. "If thou hast a desire, then I shall desire it as well." Crossing time and space, the leader began to laugh so loudly that it is said to have echoed all the way to the distant Hyrule. The man's name was Ganondorf, and his common name was Ganon of the race of evil thieves. Indeed, the King of Evil Ganon, the one who has threatened Hyrule so, was born at this time.

We do not know what Ganon wished for after gaining the Triforce's power. Yet, Ganon's evil made it to even Hyrule as it spread. People of greed were herded and consumed by this power, and disappeared. Black clouds grew in number in the sky, and many sinister happenings began to occur. The King of Hyrule called upon the Seven Sages of Hyrule, as well as the Knights to seal the source of this evil.

The Triforce itself cannot judge between good and evil. That is because only the gods can do that. However, it could not be assumed that only a good person would get their hands on the Triforce. For that reason, the people of Hyrule were told by the gods to make something that would repulse any evil that may kidnap the Triforce: the blade of evil's bane. It was called the Master Sword, and it is said that only a true hero could use it. The Sages first had to search for the existence of the Master Sword and a hero to use it.

However, the situation was urgent, and Ganon's malice was enclosing on the royal palace. Using the most of their powers, the Sages and Knights threw open a heroic battle with the evil one. The Knights valiantly used their bodies as shields during the fierce attack,although they unfortunately perished when their strength had exhausted. Nonetheless, the Sages completed the seal.

The people celebrated their victory; Hyrule had been saved from Ganon's misuse of the Triforce's power.

Comparisons to OoT:

The ALttP Imprisoning War narrative starts with the creation as an explanation of the origins of the Triforce and of the Sacred Realm. It establishes that the Triforce was left behind in the Sacred Realm, and that legends of it were passed down in Hyrule. OoT has the exact same background: the creation, the Sacred Realm, and the legends of the Triforce.

Before time began, before spirits and life existed, three golden goddesses descended upon the chaos that was Hyrule: Din, the goddess of power; Nayru, the goddess of wisdom; Farore, the goddess of courage. Din, with her strong flaming arms, she cultivated the land and created the red earth. Nayru poured her wisdom onto the earth and gave the spirit of law to the world. Farore, with her rich soul, produced all life forms who would uphold the law.

The three great goddesses, their labors completed, departed for the heavens. And golden sacred triangles remained at the point where the goddesses left the world. Since then, the sacred triangles have become the basis of our world's providence. And, the resting place of the triangles has become the Sacred Realm.

After talking about the Triforce, the ALttP myth describes that chaotic struggles erupted in Hyrule over the Sacred Realm and the Triforce. OoT establishes that there was a fierce war in the world before the game's events, and later TP provides a background for this struggle- depicting it as a rivalry over the Triforce and describing a dark tribe that came about in the midst of the struggle (previously described in FSA).

Some time ago, before the King of Hyrule unified this country, there was a fierce war in our world. One day, to escape from the fires of the war, a Hylian mother and her baby boy entered this forbidden forest. The mother was gravely injured... Her only choice was to entrust the child to the Deku Tree, the guardian spirit of the forest. The Deku Tree could sense that this was a child of destiny, whose fate would affect the entire world, so he took him into the forest. After the mother passed away, the baby was raised as a Kokiri.

The goddesses descended to the world of chaos where there was nothing at all, and created life and order, and after granting power equally to all people, they returned to the heavens. The place where the goddesses first landed is called the holy land.  For a long time, the world was at peace, with people's hearts being deeply faithful.

But at length, a rivalry ensued over Hyrule, the holy land. In the midst of the people, persons who excelled at magic appeared.  With powerful sorcery, they tried to rule the holy land, but the goddesses sent us light spirits to seal away the gigantic magic of those people. That very sorcery is the black power: the Fused Shadow.

ALttP then goes on to describe Ganondorf's entry into the Sacred Realm and seizure of the Triforce, just as happens in OoT. He discovered it by "chance," which matches up his his discovery of it in OoT, in which he gambled on Link's success. The massacre of his followers is missing, but could easily have happened off-screen. It's not missing pieces that invalidate OoT as the IW; contradictions would have to exist, and there's no real contradiction in OoT- Ganondorf finds and enters the Sacred Realm and touches the Triforce and becomes the evil king Ganon. We even see the same words the Triforce whispered to Ganon in TP (a known OoT sequel): If thou hast a desire, then I shall desire it as well.

We know that evil spread to Hyrule in OoT, because we see its effects. We know that someone ordered the Sacred Realm to be sealed because the awakening call issued forth from the Sacred Realm to summon the sages (blocked of course by Ganon's power). We know that a hero bearing the Master Sword was sought for, because Link and the Master Sword were missing and waited for for seven years. We know that Ganondorf attacked the royal palace as described, because the castle is in ruins. We know the seven sages completed their seal, because we see it cast in the end of the game.

On top of this, two separate developers stated specifically that OoT was developed as the IW.

What's there to keep OoT from being the IW?
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Offline Wolfos

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Posts: 114


« #5 on: February 11, 2009 »

Personally I think it tells a part of the OoT backstory and the TP backstory and I have much evidence for that.
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Offline nobleknightdaniel

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Posts: 19


« #6 on: April 07, 2009 »

the imprisoning war is the battle with ganondorf's father ganon and lost against king gustav/hero of man/king of hyrule
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Offline bastian

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Posts: 249


« #7 on: April 12, 2009 »

i sure love me some trolls.
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"But this is America, where we unappologetically bastardize other countries' cultures in a gross quest for moral and military supremecy." ~Amy Sherman-Palladino
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