"Enhanced" Interrogation

[KeatonKitsune]

WARNING: Potentially disturbing content ahead


Normally, I am pretty open to the Government having the freedom it needs to get the job done. But normally, the Government’s tactics agree with my moral opinions.

This, for me, is not a normal situation. I saw a report on the news yesterday about so-called “enhanced interrogation tactics” used by the CIA on top Al queda prisoners. The method focused on in the spot I saw was the worst method reportedly used in such “enhanced” tactics, and quite frankly, this worries me.

CIA's Harsh Interrogation Techniques Described

Not that there are not several topics of concern in this article, but the one that worries me the most is the method called Water Boarding.

If you read the article, it basically sums up to this. The person being “interrogated” is strapped to a board, his body is covered in cellophane, and water is poured across his body in a way that his gag reflex is induced, causing even the most determined individual to cave in and admit to anything within a few seconds. Although he is in no actual danger of drowning, he does not know this.

In my opinion, this is a method of torture, as are some of the other tactics described in the article. In my opinion, these type of tactics should not be used, not by US forces, not by anyone.


On top of moral reasons, many people who have been part of this type of interrogation suggest that not only is this an ineffective and unnecessary method of interrogation, but it also commonly leads to false information given purely as an attempt to appease the interrogators.

In fact, it’s been stated by these people that false information which eventually led to US forces going into Iraq were obtained by this method, and it was later shown that the people interrogated actually knew nothing of what they confessed, and only gave the fabricated information in hopes of appeasing their captors to stop the torture.



Comments?

[The Tao Of Bill]

WARNING: Potentially disturbing content ahead


Normally, I am pretty open to the Government having the freedom it needs to get the job done. But normally, the Government’s tactics agree with my moral opinions.

This is EXACTLY why the forefathers LIMITED our government. It's fine and dandy when you agree with the government. But we get new leaders every 4-8 years. All it takes is for one idiot to get control and when the government has "freedom" as you put it that means they can do whatever they want.  Government does not deserve freedom. Government deserves restrictions. Checks and balances. This is only meant to prevent idiots like George Bush from using our government immorally to force our views on the world by the barrel of a gun.

Either the government is free or we are. We can't be a free country if the government is free to do what it wants.

This, for me, is not a normal situation. I saw a report on the news yesterday about so-called “enhanced interrogation tactics” used by the CIA on top Al queda prisoners. The method focused on in the spot I saw was the worst method reportedly used in such “enhanced” tactics, and quite frankly, this worries me.

Keaton. Where have you been? We've been using questionable interrogation tactics since the patriot act was passed.

CIA's Harsh Interrogation Techniques Described

Not that there are not several topics of concern in this article, but the one that worries me the most is the method called Water Boarding.

If you read the article, it basically sums up to this. The person being “interrogated” is strapped to a board, his body is covered in cellophane, and water is poured across his body in a way that his gag reflex is induced, causing even the most determined individual to cave in and admit to anything within a few seconds. Although he is in no actual danger of drowning, he does not know this.

In my opinion, this is a method of torture, as are some of the other tactics described in the article. In my opinion, these type of tactics should not be used, not by US forces, not by anyone.

I 100% agree with you. And so does a lot of America. But this is the consequence of allowing the government to do what it wants without checks and balances. The congress does nothing to stop this. The courts do nothing to stop this. The people do nothing to stop this. It's disgusting what we've allowed America, the former land of the free, to become

On top of moral reasons, many people who have been part of this type of interrogation suggest that not only is this an ineffective and unnecessary method of interrogation, but it also commonly leads to false information given purely as an attempt to appease the interrogators.

In fact, it’s been stated by these people that false information which eventually led to US forces going into Iraq were obtained by this method, and it was later shown that the people interrogated actually knew nothing of what they confessed, and only gave the fabricated information in hopes of appeasing their captors to stop the torture.



Comments?

I think the most disgusting thing about all this is that the government can do this to ANYONE it determines is an enemy combatant without trial, without charge, without public knowledge. They can literally take anyone they want American or Foreign and torture them, even kill them, with no significant consequences. This is what we've allowed America to become. And it's time we start getting involved in our government again and take all necessary steps to fight corruption and start following the constitution once again. Less freedom for government = more freedom for us.

[NinJa]

The detainees were also forced to listen to rap artist Eminem's "Slim Shady" album.

What the hell ?

In fact, it’s been stated by these people that false information which eventually led to US forces going into Iraq were obtained by this method, and it was later shown that the people interrogated actually knew nothing of what they confessed, and only gave the fabricated information in hopes of appeasing their captors to stop the torture.

I'm definitely not surprised that a prisoner would tell anything in order to escape the method of torture.

[KeatonKitsune]

*sigh* I knew Rawr would miss the point and/or try to make this another anti-Bush topic...

But we get new leaders every 4-8 years. All it takes is for one idiot to get control and when the government has "freedom" as you put it that means they can do whatever they want. [...]This is only meant to prevent idiots like George Bush from using our government immorally to force our views on the world by the barrel of a gun.

If you’d read the article, you’d see that Bush, in fact, had nothing to do with these measures of interrogation, but they were actually approved by the deputy director for operations for the CIA. But then again, you are always far too quick to blame Bush for everything; I should have seen this coming.

Oh wait, I did.

Government does not deserve freedom. Government deserves restrictions.

I believe it “deserves” both.

I think the most disgusting thing about all this is that the government can do this to ANYONE it determines is an enemy combatant without trial, without charge, without public knowledge. They can literally take anyone they want American or Foreign and torture them, even kill them, with no significant consequences.

I somehow doubt the truthfulness of this statement...


Look, Rawr, I know you’re entitled to your opinion like everyone else, but if all you can do is sling blame at Bush and bitch about how Big Brother has gone “too far” and gotten away with too much freedom, I’d appreciate it if you’d leave it out of my topic.

This is an issue that is coming to the light, and it would not be coming to the light if it were not being investigated. The judges and courts will do something about it if it’s deemed illegal. And in this case, I hope it is.

What the hell ?

Yeah, I duno what was going through someone’s head when they though up that one... But what’s even funnier is that it “made them frantic”...

[Beh]

I heard this on the radio yesteday. When I got home my dad explained what  Water Boarding was. According to the radio only 1 out of 10 times is the information correct. This means they must do it to multiple people. I think it's horrible to do it to 1 one person. They also do it to the same person many times to make sure the story doesn't change. If it does they put them through another torture. They also said the information is rarely used. My first second and last reaction to that is "Why the hell do they do it!"

[Witless]

What are the chances for someone like that to tell the truth? You'll never know for sure anyway. Call me a sadist, but  a person who is helping an organisation to fuck over your country deserves this kind of torture.

I'm not saying we should automaticly apply these methods from the start, but more in a situation when all else fails.

Criminals and people alike should not be treated with any more respect than they give you.

[The Tao Of Bill]

*sigh* I knew Rawr would miss the point and/or try to make this another anti-Bush topic...

It's not just Bush who is guilty of letting our government get into this position. Clinton played his fair share too. In fact for the most part it's been the democrats who have been to blame for our country giving this much power to the executive branch. I also blame the congress, especially the democrats, for not delivering on promises to stop policing the world and stop reckless overseas spending.

But we get new leaders every 4-8 years. All it takes is for one idiot to get control and when the government has "freedom" as you put it that means they can do whatever they want. [...]This is only meant to prevent idiots like George Bush from using our government immorally to force our views on the world by the barrel of a gun.

If you’d read the article, you’d see that Bush, in fact, had nothing to do with these measures of interrogation, but they were actually approved by the deputy director for operations for the CIA. But then again, you are always far too quick to blame Bush for everything; I should have seen this coming.

Oh wait, I did.

The CIA is under executive authorization and legislative funding. Meaning that either branch could stop the CIA from doing what they are doing but neither branch chooses to. Bush has been asked several times whether he considers Waterboarding torture and he has refused to answer what the rest of the world already has. Yes. Waterboarding is 100% torture.[/quote]

Government does not deserve freedom. Government deserves restrictions.

I believe it “deserves” both.

Not possible. You can't have a government with the power to do anything it feels is right and at the same time restrict it. You can only do one or the other, Keaton. And I am surprised that you have come to the conclusion that the water boarding techniques along with other torture techniques that have been proven to be used in places Abu Ghraib prison, and still can't come the the conclusion that the government has too much freedom and needs to be restricted.

I think the most disgusting thing about all this is that the government can do this to ANYONE it determines is an enemy combatant without trial, without charge, without public knowledge. They can literally take anyone they want American or Foreign and torture them, even kill them, with no significant consequences.

I somehow doubt the truthfulness of this statement...

Then you've been living under a rock for 6 years. This is not a new thing that has just been brought to light. It was brought to light during the Abu Ghraib trials. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4977986 The Iraqi prisoner in this story died hours after his capture and it was determined he died as a result of a homicide. And though the people on the lower end of the chain were punished people like Donald Rumsfeld who had direct oversight of the prison were not charged and no incentive was given to other prisons to enforce general human rights on their prisoners and that's why we are still hearing about the horrendous tactics these prisons use such as water boarding. Many similar secret prisons still exist today and are still torturing and killing their prisoners.

It's all thanks to the Military Commissions act which allows anyone determined by the government to be an enemy combatant to lose habeas corpus rights. They are only allowed government picked attorneys. They are not allows to challenge their capture in any court. They do not need to be put on trial for the government to hold them indefinitely. And little consequences come to the government when they use heavy handed interrogation techniques are used... some of which have fatal consequences.

Here is a excert from the military comissions act of 2006

(e)(1) No court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the United States who has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination. (2) Except as provided in paragraphs (2) and (3) of section 1005(e) of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 (10 U.S.C. 801 note), no court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider any other action against the United States or its agents relating to any aspect of the detention, transfer, treatment, trial, or conditions of confinement of an alien who is or was detained by the United States and has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination.

Not only does it say these men do not have to be given a trial, but courts cannot give them a trial. Courts cannot even challenge the fact that these prisoners are being held without trial. This effectively erases all checks and balances on the law. It's completely unconstitutional. It's not just Bush's fault. Congress passed this too. Including democrats. But Bush signed it so he does deserve blame.

[Twilight Wolf]

Listening to Eminem is torture enough.  CRIMINALS!

And Keaton, Rawr is partially right.  They can do this to whomever they want if they deem in necessary.  I do believe that those that are interrogated in an enhanced manner are called "detainees" to avoid the Geneva Conventions, but I could be wrong. 

Rawr, don't blame this Democratic Congress for not fulfilling their promises.  Well, okay, blame them for making some of their promises.  However, it has largely been the Republicans and Bush that have blocked stuff from getting thru.

Now, as for the overall topic...

It is disturbing that this is what we do to get information, or, as the case may be, misinformation.  What is more disturbing is that we do this to get information that is correct only 10% of the time, if what beh says is true.  I agree that it is inhumane to subject people to waterboarding, as well as sleep deprivation.  Some of the other stuff (belly slapping) isn't inhumane, just...mean?  Yea, that's a good word for it. 

My suggestion to remedy this is that we merely detain those that need to be interrogated, and make them a deal.  They can be free and become free American citizens if they give information that proves to be useful.  Until then, we can keep them in jail and keep them alive. 

[The Tao Of Bill]

Rawr, don't blame this Democratic Congress for not fulfilling their promises.  Well, okay, blame them for making some of their promises.  However, it has largely been the Republicans and Bush that have blocked stuff from getting thru.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=1&vote=00313

The patriot act was passed bipartisan. Meaning democrats and republicans. With only one nay vote in the senate.

And 34 democrats can be blamed for the military commissions act. Not to mention they refuse to defund the war and defund the CIA. Also it was democrat philosophy of big central government that allowed all this power to be given to the government in the first place. So I do in part blame the democrats for what has happened. Though for the most part I blame the NeoCons.

My suggestion to remedy this is that we merely detain those that need to be interrogated, and make them a deal.  They can be free and become free American citizens if they give information that proves to be useful.  Until then, we can keep them in jail and keep them alive.

They still deserve a trial.

[Twilight Wolf]

Rawr, don't blame this Democratic Congress for not fulfilling their promises.  Well, okay, blame them for making some of their promises.  However, it has largely been the Republicans and Bush that have blocked stuff from getting thru.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=1&vote=00313

The patriot act was passed bipartisan. Meaning democrats and republicans. With only one nay vote in the senate.

And 34 democrats can be blamed for the military commissions act. Not to mention they refuse to defund the war and defund the CIA. Also it was democrat philosophy of big central government that allowed all this power to be given to the government in the first place. So I do in part blame the democrats for what has happened. Though for the most part I blame the NeoCons.

My suggestion to remedy this is that we merely detain those that need to be interrogated, and make them a deal.  They can be free and become free American citizens if they give information that proves to be useful.  Until then, we can keep them in jail and keep them alive.

They still deserve a trial.

Notice when it was passed.  2001.  That was a few Congresses ago. 

You are right, they do deserve a trial.  If they are found guilty, then my method works. 

[Beh]

if what beh says is true.

I may be wrong, I was eating Taco Bell at 8:00 in a car with windows rolled down. I just remembered they also talked about 4 men who were put through most of the tortures on that list. There was a women who has to call each one every day to tell them about their husbands' conditions.

[Witless]

My suggestion to remedy this is that we merely detain those that need to be interrogated, and make them a deal.  They can be free and become free American citizens if they give information that proves to be useful.  Until then, we can keep them in jail and keep them alive.

The problem with that deal is that they most likely don't want to be free American citizens. And even if they do, who says they won't just continue to plan for any attacks or aid in an attack?

I agree that it is inhumane to subject people to waterboarding, as well as sleep deprivation.  Some of the other stuff (belly slapping) isn't inhumane, just...mean?  Yea, that's a good word for it.

What would you suggest they do? Building a 'relationship'? Give them 72 virgins?

[The Tao Of Bill]

I agree that it is inhumane to subject people to waterboarding, as well as sleep deprivation.  Some of the other stuff (belly slapping) isn't inhumane, just...mean?  Yea, that's a good word for it.

What would you suggest they do? Building a 'relationship'? Give them 72 virgins?

I tell you what I expect them to do. I expect them to treat them like any other criminal. I expect them to arrest them. Allow them a lawyer. Allow them to only speak if they want to and if a lawyer is present. Give them a fair trial. And if guilty punish them according to the crime. And if they are not guilty then release them.

[Beh]

I tell you what I expect them to do. I expect them to treat them like any other criminal. I expect them to arrest them. Allow them a lawyer. Allow them to only speak if they want to and if a lawyer is present. Give them a fair trial. And if guilty punish them according to the crime. And if they are not guilty then release them.

That sounds good to me. Torture shouldn't even be considered an option.

[Loki]

I agree that it is inhumane to subject people to waterboarding, as well as sleep deprivation.  Some of the other stuff (belly slapping) isn't inhumane, just...mean?  Yea, that's a good word for it.

What would you suggest they do? Building a 'relationship'? Give them 72 virgins?

I tell you what I expect them to do. I expect them to treat them like any other criminal. I expect them to arrest them. Allow them a lawyer. Allow them to only speak if they want to and if a lawyer is present. Give them a fair trial. And if guilty punish them according to the crime. And if they are not guilty then release them.

Not that I'm going to try and defend torture or anything, but come on, Rawr. A lawyer's job is to defend his client. If he gets a good lawyer, he can be found not guilty.

A court verdict basically means nothing. You can be found not guilty if you are and guilty if you're not. It's dumb.

And besides, why should we give American rights to foreigners who we're fighting? Give them their human rights, sure. Don't just kill them or torture them. But I don't think they deserve any kind of a trial or anything.

[The Tao Of Bill]

You can be found not guilty if you are and guilty if you're not. It's dumb.

And when there is no trial you can be held in prison and tortured or even killed when you are innocent.

And besides, why should we give American rights to foreigners who we're fighting? Give them their human rights, sure. Don't just kill them or torture them. But I don't think they deserve any kind of a trial or anything.

Because that's how you spread democracy. By example. Not by bullets.

[Loki]

You can be found not guilty if you are and guilty if you're not. It's dumb.

And when there is no trial you can be held in prison and tortured or even killed when you are innocent.

Such is life. So we give them a trial, get our lawyers on them, and find them guilty. Then what? Then we interrogate them? What happens if they're guilty, Rawr? Not much is gonna change, and I can guarantee most, if not all, of them would be found guilty.

And besides, why should we give American rights to foreigners who we're fighting? Give them their human rights, sure. Don't just kill them or torture them. But I don't think they deserve any kind of a trial or anything.

Because that's how you spread democracy. By example. Not by bullets.

And what is this bullshit about spreading democracy? If anyone should do that, it sure as hell isn't us. Ever stop to think that maybe America Democracy isn't exactly the best thing for... anyone? Close, but not there. At all.

And just because it's one of the better solutions compared to the other forms on the planet right now still doesn't mean it should be spread.

[KeatonKitsune]

Call me a sadist, but  a person who is helping an organisation to fuck over your country deserves this kind of torture.

Maybe he does. But I don’t think it’s humanitarian to do this sort of thing as punishment. Eye for an eye is not a motto I want America to live by. Not in this sense.

Imprisonment is our usual method of punishment, but if you want to get physical, whip him or something. There’s a not-so-thin line between pain and the feeling of death.

It's not just Bush who is guilty of letting our government get into this position.

Then why is Bush always the first, and usually the last name you mention in your little rants? That’s what annoys me.

rest of the world already has. Yes. Waterboarding is 100% torture.

Rest of the world? No, not by a long shot. There are still several proponents to this method, most of whom argue that it’s not torture.

I don’t personally agree, but if everyone thought it were torture, it likely would not have been so easily implemented.

Not possible. You can't have a government with the power to do anything it feels is right and at the same time restrict it.

I never said “do anything it feels is right”, I said freedom. Not absolute freedom. There’s a world of difference.

And I am surprised that you have come to the conclusion that the water boarding techniques along with other torture techniques that have been proven to be used in places Abu Ghraib prison, and still can't come the the conclusion that the government has too much freedom and needs to be restricted.

I simply think that someone made a grave error, as any human will. Someone had bad judgment and started this program of “enhanced interrogation”.

If a police officer user bad judgment and decides to be harsher on someone than needs be, does this mean that he should not have the power to use such toughness if the need does arise? No. He’s not exhibiting too much power; he’s simply exhibiting poor judgment.

They can literally take anyone they want American or Foreign and torture them, even kill them, with no significant consequences.

Here is a excert from the military comissions act of 2006

(e)(1) No court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the United States who has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination. (2) Except as provided in paragraphs (2) and (3) of section 1005(e) of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 (10 U.S.C. 801 note), no court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider any other action against the United States or its agents relating to any aspect of the detention, transfer, treatment, trial, or conditions of confinement of an alien who is or was detained by the United States and has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination.

Here is a pitch perfect example of how much you actually skew the truth in your little radical rants. Notice the bold parts above. Notice how, even though it’s perfectly clear that this paragraph only applies to aliens, and yet you turn around and claim that the Government can take any America under this law.

Oh and then you go on and claim that they can kill anyone they want under this law, when the treatment of prisoners is not even mentioned here.

I also notice some oddly missing Exceptions in the paragraph above which further limit the extent of this law.

They can do this to whomever they want if they deem in necessary.

Lack of evidence aside, please remember that “enhanced interrogation” has only been used on about 10 people, and all of whom have been “top” Al Queda agents. I somehow doubt that you or I have much to personally worry about.

It is disturbing that this is what we do to get information, or, as the case may be, misinformation.  What is more disturbing is that we do this to get information that is correct only 10% of the time, if what beh says is true.  I agree that it is inhumane to subject people to waterboarding, as well as sleep deprivation.  Some of the other stuff (belly slapping) isn't inhumane, just...mean?  Yea, that's a good word for it.

Haha, I agree with you completely here, especially with the ... belly slapping... I was like what is this the third grade?

What would you suggest they do? Building a 'relationship'?

Actually, you’re spot on. Some of the people who were part of these interrogations said that a method proven to be much more effective was to build a relationship and a notion of trust with the people, get to know them, and then apply questions to the individuals.

And besides, why should we give American rights to foreigners who we're fighting? Give them their human rights, sure. Don't just kill them or torture them. But I don't think they deserve any kind of a trial or anything.

I kind of agree here, though I also would not mind them getting a trial as long as the lawyer is out to get the truth, not simply win the case.

And when there is no trial you can be held in prison and tortured or even killed when you are innocent.

It’s not the absence of a trial that allows this, and it’s not the presence of a trial that permits it. Let’s not jump to conclusions.

Because that's how you spread democracy. By example. Not by bullets.

I think if this took place in a country set up to follow such an example, I would agree. But it’s not going to do any good if we simply give our enemies our rights when dealing with them. How would that lead to democracy?

[The Tao Of Bill]

Call me a sadist, but  a person who is helping an organisation to fuck over your country deserves this kind of torture.

Lot's of people deserve torture. That should be left to God when he sends those fuckers to hell. We should not torture ANYONE. We should not stoop to their level of hatred.

Then why is Bush always the first, and usually the last name you mention in your little rants? That’s what annoys me.

Because he is the one with the most power to stop this. He has full authorization over the CIA. He can give them direct orders. He signs the bills that allow this sort of treatment to foreign prisoners of war and he is the one that allows our military to be trained on using these techniques. Bush is the head honcho of all of this and he chooses not to stop it. Therefore he deserves blame. Not all of the blame but a majority of it because he has the majority of the power to stop it. Congress needs to be in 75% agreement to stop it. Bush can stop it at anytime he decides to.

Rest of the world? No, not by a long shot. There are still several proponents to this method, most of whom argue that it’s not torture.

I don’t personally agree, but if everyone thought it were torture, it likely would not have been so easily implemented.

Water boarding is considered torture by the UN. So if your country signed onto the United Nations Convention Against Torture (which 142 nations have signed up for including the US) You're supposed to be against water boarding. So I'd say it's pretty safe to say the world considers water boarding torture.

source

I never said “do anything it feels is right”, I said freedom. Not absolute freedom. There’s a world of difference.

I never said absolute restriction either. But the checks and balance system that was implemented by our forefathers needs to be restored. The patriot act effectively got rid of that checks and balance system by giving the executive branch the ability to write it's own warrants thus giving them the right to spy on search and seize American Citizens without judicial oversight.

I simply think that someone made a grave error, as any human will. Someone had bad judgment and started this program of “enhanced interrogation”.

If a police officer user bad judgment and decides to be harsher on someone than needs be, does this mean that he should not have the power to use such toughness if the need does arise? No. He’s not exhibiting too much power; he’s simply exhibiting poor judgment.

Forgive me if I don't like giving people with poor judgment guns and ammo. Besides this isn't just one person. Or even one prison. This is a human rights failure on a massive level. It's time we took a look at the higher ups in charge of this operation.

Here is a pitch perfect example of how much you actually skew the truth in your little radical rants. Notice the bold parts above. Notice how, even though it’s perfectly clear that this paragraph only applies to aliens, and yet you turn around and claim that the Government can take any America under this law.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-scotus8dec08,0,4306237.story?coll=la-home-center
http://www.democracynow.org/2007/4/5/outsourced_guantanamo_fbi_cia_interrogating_detainees

That might be what the law says. Doesn't mean they aren't doing it. Alien seems to have been defined as anyone outside of the country regardless of citizenship.

Oh and then you go on and claim that they can kill anyone they want under this law, when the treatment of prisoners is not even mentioned here.

I didn't say it was legal. I said they were doing it.

I also notice some oddly missing Exceptions in the paragraph above which further limit the extent of this law.

(1) IN GENERAL- Section 2241 of title 28, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

`(e) Except as provided in section 1005 of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005, no court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider--

`(1) an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the Department of Defense at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba; or

`(2) any other action against the United States or its agents relating to any aspect of the detention by the Department of Defense of an alien at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, who--

`(A) is currently in military custody; or

`(B) has been determined by the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit in accordance with the procedures set forth in section 1005(e) of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant.'.

Lack of evidence aside, please remember that “enhanced interrogation” has only been used on about 10 people

And it just so happens all 10 are in the same image! *coughbullshitcough*

It’s not the absence of a trial that allows this, and it’s not the presence of a trial that permits it. Let’s not jump to conclusions.

Yes it is! How can you prove someone is guilty if you do not have a trial!? It's not supposed to be possible under our laws. Innocent until proven guilty! If you have not had a trial you are automatically supposed to be considered innocent by our law.

I think if this took place in a country set up to follow such an example, I would agree. But it’s not going to do any good if we simply give our enemies our rights when dealing with them. How would that lead to democracy?

If they can't follow by example what makes you think they can follow by threats?

[Deku]

It's not just Bush who is guilty of letting our government get into this position.

Then why is Bush always the first, and usually the last name you mention in your little rants? That’s what annoys me.

Why do you feel so compelled to defend Bush?  I know that Rawr can defend himself (and he has), but it annoys me that you evade the issue with one-sentence responses by ranting about how Rawr always wants to demean Bush.

Bush is the president and has a ton of power (any grade school kid knows this); he can start and stop these types of things.  But Rawr has already conceded that it wasn't just Bush, it's been a bipartisan effort - both sides are guilty.