My Wind Waker Placement Theory (Spoilers)

[Casual Matt]

Hey, guys. I just wanted to come on here and post my theory on where The Wind Waker fits into the Zelda Timeline. I already posted it on another forum, so I'll just copy what I wrote there and address whatever issues were already brought to my attention with it.

First of all, I'd like to say that this thread will obviously contain a lot of spoilers for The Wind Waker. That being said, if there are spoilers related to games released afterwards (ie, Phantom Hourglass) I'd like to respectfully ask that those be hidden in Spoiler Text.

Anyway, here are my thoughts on the placement of The Wind Waker.

First off, I'd like to say that I think the timeline was very straightforward before TWW came out. AoL was a direct sequel to LoZ. ALttP was a prequel taking place long before. LA was a sequel to ALttP. OoT was a prequel to ALttP. MM went into an alternate direction after OoT. And the Oracle games fit nicely between ALttP and LA.

Now The Wind Waker comes along and throws a big monkey wrench into the spokes. But I think it ends up falling between ALttP and LoZ. Here are my reasons.

TWW obviously places it in the Adult Timeline since it describes the events of OoT's Adult Timeline ending in the backstory during the intro. Not to mention the stainglass windows showing the sages. Let's just get that out of the way.

Now, Ganon appears in TWW. This pretty much automatically puts it after ALttP. Why? Because Ganon was sealed in the Dark World at the end of OoT and was still there in ALttP. My theory suggests that Ganon was able to return from the Dark World because Past Link killed him with the silver arrows. And then in the Oracle series, Twinrova revived him. Basically I'm suggesting that he survived the final battle in the Oracle series, and waited to return to Hyrule when there was no hero to stop him.

Okay, I'm prepared for the instant problem here, too. Ganon has the Triforce of Power in TWW, but he lost it after the end of ALttP. But don't forget that the Oracle games show the Triforce in Hyrule Castle. And in TWW, Ganon's forces were frozen in time after attacking said castle. I'm suggesting that Ganon stole the Triforce of Power from Hyrule Castle when he returned, but the other two pieces were kept out of his grasp by the king.

Another problem is that it seems to imply that TWW is the first time Ganon returned to Hyrule. But this isn't really a problem since he was killed in The Dark World in ALttP and the Oracle games take place outside of Hyrule altogether. So it still fits in that regard.

Finally, I really think the geography of Hyrule supports my theory.

Image:Hyrule.gif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Ocarina of Time, Hyrule had the castle in the middle, surrounded by desert, forest, a lake, and a mountain.

Image:LttPMap.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While things in ALttP were shuffled around a bit, its basically got the same features. Castle in the middle, surrounded by desert, forest, lake, mountain. Now look at the map of the 8-bit games.

Image:Hyrulemap.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Totally different. Looks kind of flooded out, doesn't it? Hyrule was destroyed and completely flooded at the end of The Wind Waker. My theory operates under the assumption that at some point, the Great Sea dried up or disappeared somehow, leaving the Hyrule we see in the original LoZ.

Of course, any theory that doesn't place TWW at the very end pretty much has to assume The Great Sea dries up somehow.

Anyway, that's my theory. I know I'm not exactly a novelist, so I don't know how coherent my arguments are here. So if there are any questions on what I meant, I'd be happy to elaborate on any points. Other than that, I hope I've made some sense, and possibly allowed some of you to look at TWW's placement in a new way.

In Wind Waker, the Triforce of Courage is said to have been shattered since the Hero of Time left. Thus, the ToC has been shattered since the end of OoT.
How did the Triforce go from it's state at the end of OoT [Zelda=ToW, Ganondorf=ToP, ToC is shattered] to it's state in aLttP [Complete and in the Sacred Realm] then to Wind Waker [ToW=Zelda, ToP=Ganon, ToC is shattered] ?

If the ToC has been shattered since OoT, then no games involving the Triforce can come in between OoT and WW.
Seeing as in game evidence such as the state of the Triforce and Ganon talking about the hero of time [and not the Hero of Legends, aLttP Link], and seeing as the directors themselves say that the OoT adult ending leads into WW, there should be no doubt that OoT-WW is a segment of the timeline with no [existing] games separating them.

That's a good point.

My theory operates under the assumption that the Triforce of Courage was not shattered immediately after OoT Link left, but rather later when Ganon stole the Triforce of Power again.

Also, after playing Ocarina of Time, I always thought that the Triforce completed itself in the Dark World at the end of A Link to the Past because after Ganon was killed, nobody was holding any of the pieces, so it just went back to it's original location.

I know this theory is on somewhat shaky ground. Most ones involving both The Wind Waker and A Link to the Past are. I guess it comes down to whether you find the state of the Triforce or Ganon being in the Dark World to be a more compelling argument. Frankly, I tend towards the latter.

But I totally understand anybody who doesn't think any games can take place between Ocarina of Time and The Wind Waker. I just more firmly think that no games with Ganon as the main villain can be between Ocarina of Time and A Link to the Past because I strongly believe that Ocarina of Time was, in fact, the Imprisoning War.

[Skylarkff]

Also, how does Ganon get the trident, then lose it. And in the final battle of the oracle series Ganon loses his mind due to a failed ressurection. The only thing I can see to place after it is LoZ/Aol as he seems more mindless and destructive in those games. Also I agree with the other things that were pointed out against it.

I believe I saw this on ZU but never posted. I'm glad to see someone else joined here.

[Casual Matt]

Well, I am operating under the assumption that Ganon regained his sanity after the Oracle games.

Honestly, I just think the big thing is that the inconsistencies in this theory are more easily explained simply by assuming things we don't know about happen in between games than if The Wind Waker is put between OoT and ALttP.

Like how Ganon should be in the Dark World and how Hyrule is destroyed at the end of The Wind Waker yet is still intact in A Link to the Past with a similar geography. I'm not claiming this theory to be definite. I just find these facts very compelling reasons to place The Wind Waker after A Link to the Past.

[Skylarkff]

Well, a couple ways around that. Since ganondorf died in WW and TP. Most say the FSA ganondorf is a reincarnation and thus becomes the new ganon.  I however dont place any games after WW. Since I do not see how the sea DRAINS for the master sword to be found.  I fix the problem by placing the games in the child line or a 3rd timeline as described in my new "rejected hero of time" theory here http://www.thehylia.com/forums/the-rejected-hero-of-time-theory-t4860.0.html

[Fairy penguin]

Look at this debate.

http://www.thehylia.com/forums/the-draining-of-the-great-sea-in-tww-t3515.0.html

There are just too many inconsistencies in your theory. 

[LexLionHart]

1) Why can't Ganon leave the Dark World between OoT and ALttP, if OoT is the IW? TWW at least states that it has the "same Ganon" who was defeated by the Hero of Time. ALttP, on the other hand, is marked by inconsistencies, namely that Ganon was able to return to the world of light after he entered in OoT, and that he did not seize the whole Triforce. Also, the in-game story of ALttP never once ties Ganon to the IW, instead delegating him as some guy who got into the Sacred Realm who absolutely no one in the world of light knows about. Never once do we hear of his past threats to Hyrule - we do hear of the monsters in the IW, but they are never once attributed to him.

2) Since the Great Deku Tree plans to "merge the islands into one," and the only physical landmarks that remain from OoT in ALttP are the desert, Death Mountain, and the source of Hyrule's water (the latter two would easily have survived the flood, being on mountains), then wouldn't the obvious result be a landmass that spans the gaps between Hyrule's mountains (and that would thus include Death Mountain and the former Zora's Domain)? The desert actually goes unexplained, but there is a desert island in TWW (Headstone Island) that roughly matches OoT's desert in geographical location. You may say that Lake Hylia and the Lost Woods remain, but I can contest both of those.

2a) Lake Hylia is shown in TMC and FSA to be at the northeast corner of the map, at the foot of the water source. If a new landmass was formed, this is exactly where we would expect a lake to be. Over time, the lake would push southward, into the land occupied by the Minish Woods/Village of the Blue Maiden in TMC/FSA, respectively. This is precisely what we see between TMC, FSA, and ALttP.

2b) The Lost Woods in ALttP are to the northwest. They were to the east/southeast in OoT and TP. There is a forest rather similar to the Lost Woods in many respects to the west in LoZ, TMC, and FSA. In FSA, this same forest is actually transformed into a dark forest and christened the "Lost Woods". (NOTE: LoZ's and TMC's both seem to be the same forest, since both hide a graveyard where Ghini roam.)

[Fairy penguin]

You forget I already beat you and proved that Oot doesn't equal the IW. Oh well that was fun! Round 3! And convenienty with three days of school left! Now to get serious.

LexLionHart

) Why can't Ganon leave the Dark World between OoT and ALttP, if OoT is the IW? TWW at least states that it has the "same Ganon" who was defeated by the Hero of Time. ALttP, on the other hand, is marked by inconsistencies, namely that Ganon was able to return to the world of light after he entered in OoT, and that he did not seize the whole Triforce. Also, the in-game story of ALttP never once ties Ganon to the IW, instead delegating him as some guy who got into the Sacred Realm who absolutely no one in the world of light knows about. Never once do we hear of his past threats to Hyrule - we do hear of the monsters in the IW, but they are never once attributed to him.

The reason Ganon couldn't get out is simple. The opening says he was sealed inside not because it was him, but because the king ordered seven wise men to seal the entrance because of the dark power flowing out. Thats why he can't get out. He can get out in Oot because he figred out how.

We don't hear his past threats because there are many Ganons. If you want to debate that, I'll soon make a thread about that.

Deserts don't make good landmarks, seeing as they constantly change. If they have something big in them, like a pyramid for instance, then it can maybe stay, but otherwise, its a lot of sand thats hot in the day, but cold at night. Not much for a landmark.

2a) Lake Hylia is shown in TMC and FSA to be at the northeast corner of the map, at the foot of the water source. If a new landmass was formed, this is exactly where we would expect a lake to be. Over time, the lake would push southward, into the land occupied by the Minish Woods/Village of the Blue Maiden in TMC/FSA, respectively. This is precisely what we see between TMC, FSA, and ALttP.

That in no way means it has to be coming up from the sea. Natural landmasses probably already formed that way.

2) Since the Great Deku Tree plans to "merge the islands into one," and the only physical landmarks that remain from OoT in ALttP are the desert, Death Mountain, and the source of Hyrule's water (the latter two would easily have survived the flood, being on mountains), then wouldn't the obvious result be a landmass that spans the gaps between Hyrule's mountains (and that would thus include Death Mountain and the former Zora's Domain)? The desert actually goes unexplained, but there is a desert island in TWW (Headstone Island) that roughly matches OoT's desert in geographical location. You may say that Lake Hylia and the Lost Woods remain, but I can contest both of those.

Was the point of that to prove that OoT map can fit under the GS? The Deku Tree may want the world to unflood, but it won't happen. He can't just destroy water. If trees did that, after a few billion years wwe wouldn't be here. Trees release it with clouds or something. I forget. And if they did they would ultimately kill everything off. They won't just stop drinking water because they drank down to a certain level. They would drink it all, and the Deku Tree doesn't want that.

[LexLionHart]

You forget I already beat you and proved that Oot doesn't equal the IW.

Wait, when did this happen?

The reason Ganon couldn't get out is simple. The opening says he was sealed inside not because it was him, but because the king ordered seven wise men to seal the entrance because of the dark power flowing out. Thats why he can't get out. He can get out in Oot because he figred out how.

1) The opening does not mention Ganon.
2) Ganon was said to have been unable to "figure out" how to return to the light world, which means that he was never able to get out because he didn't know how.

We don't hear his past threats because there are many Ganons.

We don't hear about his threat during the IW, either.

That in no way means it has to be coming up from the sea. Natural landmasses probably already formed that way.

In ALttP, Lake Hylia is to the south.
In OoT, Lake Hylia is to the south.
In FSA, Lake Hylia is to the north, at the foot of the waterfall.
In TMC, Lake Hylia is to the north, at the foot of the waterfall.

FSA is not before OoT. ALttP is not before the flood. There is no logical explanation for Lake Hylia retreating between any game and FSA, besides the flood.

The Deku Tree may want the world to unflood, but it won't happen. He can't just destroy water. If trees did that, after a few billion years wwe wouldn't be here.

Real trees don't really do that.

Deku Trees do, since they are spirits of the earth. They can transform islands into larger islands. The Deku Tree says this himself. Removing the water is unnecessary. Instead the Deku Tree can raise up the land.

[Fairy penguin]

1) The opening does not mention Ganon

And your point?

) Ganon was said to have been unable to "figure out" how to return to the light world, which means that he was never able to get out because he didn't know how.

Again, whats your point?

Wait, when did this happen?

I beat you in the Draining of the Great Sea thread? Remember the one we debated for four months?
http://www.thehylia.com/forums/the-draining-of-the-great-sea-in-tww-t3515.0.html
Remeber now? It took a long time and was hard, but I won in the end. It was fun. Except that only tied us because you beat me in the previous thread. Oh, and I use quote tags now.

FSA is not before OoT. ALttP is not before the flood. There is no logical explanation for Lake Hylia retreating between any game and FSA, besides the flood.

That won't happen. Where would people learn to farm? Where would animals come from? Didn't you notice how TWW only had pigs, crabs, and seagulls for land animals? You think people are just going to find a ton of animals living at the bottom of the ocean and just start living in New Hyrule? How would people remember Hyrule? There is no reason for them to remember the name, seeing as in TWW opening, they can't even remember its name!

Link has no reason we have ever seen to suddenly start telling the world that Hyrule is at the bottom of the ocean and what little history he knew. Not only that, but as a child, adults and teenagers would think the small kid is just telling a story he thought up.

How are people supposed to know what to call Lake Hylia if they can't even remember Hyrules name? Why would they call it that? They don't have a reason to say its the same. In fact, if the world did resurface, it would be a different lake. Not every lake is has to be called by the same name. Believing so is nothing but folly.

And roots are going to bring dirt up how?

[LexLionHart]

And your point?

If the opening doesn't mention Ganon, and the game never connects Ganon to the opening, it's pure inference that connects Ganon to the opening. Since Ganon was removed from the manual story, then Ganon has been completely disconnected from the war, and thus there is nothing saying he was sealed there.

Again, whats your point?

No one ever said he was stuck because the sages sealed him there; he's stuck anyway.

I beat you in the Draining of the Great Sea thread? Remember the one we debated for four months?
http://www.thehylia.com/forums/the-draining-of-the-great-sea-in-tww-t3515.0.html
Remeber now? It took a long time and was hard, but I won in the end. It was fun. Except that only tied us because you beat me in the previous thread. Oh, and I use quote tags now.

You didn't beat me.

Your last point was that the world was flooded to seal evil, and that unflooding it would cause everybody to die. But Ganon died at the end of TWW, so your point never held any water.

That won't happen. Where would people learn to farm? Where would animals come from? Didn't you notice how TWW only had pigs, crabs, and seagulls for land animals? You think people are just going to find a ton of animals living at the bottom of the ocean and just start living in New Hyrule? How would people remember Hyrule? There is no reason for them to remember the name, seeing as in TWW opening, they can't even remember its name!

Link has no reason we have ever seen to suddenly start telling the world that Hyrule is at the bottom of the ocean and what little history he knew. Not only that, but as a child, adults and teenagers would think the small kid is just telling a story he thought up.

How are people supposed to know what to call Lake Hylia if they can't even remember Hyrules name? Why would they call it that? They don't have a reason to say its the same. In fact, if the world did resurface, it would be a different lake. Not every lake is has to be called by the same name. Believing so is nothing but folly.

And roots are going to bring dirt up how?

1) People are already farming. (See TWW, PH, and TFPRR.)
2) There are already animals. (See TWW, PH, and TFPRR.)
3) See above answers.
4) There's nothing they need to remember besides the IW, and OoT and related events would conveniently be the only chapter in the timeline prior to the flood.
5) Memory is irrelevant. There are obviously ruins connected to Hyrule all over the Great Sea.
6) Lake Hylia is one of the four place names from Old Hyrule that appears in New Hyrule. The others are Death Mountain (this name definitely survives the flood, since it appears in TFPRR), Lon Lon Ranch (this one also survives the flood, since it appears in TFPRR), and the Lost Woods (and the Deku Tree obviously survives the flood).
7) Lake Hylia in FSA is definitely different from the one from OoT (as it is at the start of the river, while OoT's is at the end), and I place FSA before ALttP and TMC before FSA, after the flood.

[Fairy penguin]

You are taking your own timeline as fact. It is not. No timeline is fact yet. So both these points mean nothing.

6) Lake Hylia is one of the four place names from Old Hyrule that appears in New Hyrule. The others are Death Mountain (this name definitely survives the flood, since it appears in TFPRR), Lon Lon Ranch (this one also survives the flood, since it appears in TFPRR), and the Lost Woods (and the Deku Tree obviously survives the flood).
7) Lake Hylia in FSA is definitely different from the one from OoT (as it is at the start of the river, while OoT's is at the end), and I place FSA before ALttP and TMC before FSA, after the flood.

People are already farming. (See TWW, PH, and TFPRR.)
2) There are already animals. (See TWW, PH, and TFPRR.)

PH is a dream, or some alternate demension. Doesn't count. Tell me which island farms in TWW. I said there aren't many animals, noty that they were non-existent. Pigs, seagulls and crabs. Thats not very many.

You didn't beat me.

Your last point was that the world was flooded to seal evil, and that unflooding it would cause everybody to die. But Ganon died at the end of TWW, so your point never held any water.

And yet you never did anything to counter it. If you don't post and just leave and don't come back at all in that thread, you lose. But you being you won't settle for that. From everything you've written, your determination stems from you being right, correct? ISn't that what you want, to be right?

If the opening doesn't mention Ganon, and the game never connects Ganon to the opening, it's pure inference that connects Ganon to the opening. Since Ganon was removed from the manual story, then Ganon has been completely disconnected from the war, and thus there is nothing saying he was sealed there.
No one ever said he was stuck because the sages sealed him there; he's stuck anyway

How did he get out without damaging the seal? Why would he leave it intact? How would another get in? Why would the seal only work one way? Why would the sages only allow it to go one way? What is the point of that?

Memory is irrelevant. There are obviously ruins connected to Hyrule all over the Great Sea.

Just because there are ruins all over doesn't mean that its going to tell you everything they need to know. There are no books that we saw. There are no scrolls. There are no parchments. There are no complicated hyroglyphics. There is nothing to tell anyone what they were or for which place it originaly was. Also, if poeple managed to find the temples, they would find the Wind and Earth Temples flooded. We only went on the mountain (island) entrances because we were trapped around Hyrule Castle in Hyrule.

There's nothing they need to remember besides the IW, and OoT and related events would conveniently be the only chapter in the timeline prior to the flood.

Except those are seperate events. Except that the people don't know any places name. Except that they don't know Hyrules name. Except that Tetra has no reason to go back to being Zelda. Except that they have no history besides a vague story that is only celebrated by one small island

[bastian]

The only thing I feel like mentioning is that the map used to prove that LoZ/AoL features a flooded landscape is equal to fan fiction. It is not even remotely offical as it comes from the non-canon comic book series (you know, the one that features the Triforce of Power as a translucent red pyramid thingie).

On a completely off-topic note, the thing that I hate the most about that map is that it shows Southern Hyrule (wherein LoZ takes place) as being as large as Northern and Eastern Hyrule (wherein AoL takes place) . . . and then completely distorts the ACTUAL representation that was provided us in the AoL map to show just how tiny LoZ's Hyrule was in comparison.

[Casual Matt]

The only thing I feel like mentioning is that the map used to prove that LoZ/AoL features a flooded landscape is equal to fan fiction. It is not even remotely offical as it comes from the non-canon comic book series (you know, the one that features the Triforce of Power as a translucent red pyramid thingie).

On a completely off-topic note, the thing that I hate the most about that map is that it shows Southern Hyrule (wherein LoZ takes place) as being as large as Northern and Eastern Hyrule (wherein AoL takes place) . . . and then completely distorts the ACTUAL representation that was provided us in the AoL map to show just how tiny LoZ's Hyrule was in comparison.

I've realized this since I came up with this theory.

Also, I now realize the improbability of A Link to the Past coming before The Wind Waker, since the idea of it being after fits much better when you take the Four Swords games into account.

Thanks to anybody who took the time to read it, but now I must say that my theory is indeed wrong.

[Fairy penguin]

Thanks to anybody who took the time to read it, but now I must say that my theory is indeed wrong.

You're welcome.