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Author Topic: Let's Count To A Million!  (Read 1943529 times)
Offline Bidet to you sir

zim
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Posts: 2,478


« #163180 on: May 19, 2012 »

173780

Mass unemployment, huge wealth divide, corrupt police force, corruption and bribery at the highest levels of government and the media, a growing fascist movement, to name a few.

Of course thats par the course, capitalism has inherent contradictions.

Marxism 101: If a person tells you "socialism only works in theory" respond with "capitalism doesn't work in theory or in practice"

Unless the goal of capitalism is a horrible society where people are homeless, starve, and have no legal rights to a good life.

But freedom they have a right to freedom.

What use is a right of free speech if you don't have a right to a living wage, a right to organise, a right to be employed, a right to healthcare.

Freedom of choice and speech is worthless, when the people who are meant to listen have made you weak as a kitten, and unable to fight back.

(not that I'm against freedom of choice and freedom of speech, I'm against liberalism, which argues that is all you need to succeed)

Edit: I would like to add that while some social democrats and social liberals obviously argue for a welfare state, a welfare state is not socialism, it's just a defence against the contradictions of capitalism, and eventually neoliberal and reactionary capitalist scum figure out a way to tear it down.

The only solution is the seizing of the means of production by the workers, direct socialist democracy, where each man and woman has a say in the running of their work and their country through unionisation and a workers, classless state.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012 by Bidet to you sir » Logged

Offline Big Tater

Zora
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Posts: 642


« #163181 on: May 19, 2012 »

173,781
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Offline Bidet to you sir

zim
*

Posts: 2,478


« #163182 on: May 19, 2012 »

173782

Now I'm going to watch star trek stuff.

Star Trek is half the reason I'm a socialist.

Am I kidding?

Lol, you figure it out.
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Offline Big Tater

Zora
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Posts: 642


« #163183 on: May 19, 2012 »

173,783
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Offline hisak

Sage of Shadow
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Posts: 4,709


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« #163184 on: May 19, 2012 »

173,784

What Zim describes as liberalism sounds a lot like American libertarianism. Am I correct?
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Offline Adam

Undiluted Awesome
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Flies in His Eyes


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« #163185 on: May 20, 2012 »

173,785.
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AKA: Chibi
Offline Ezlo's Apprentice

ThornSpell47
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Posts: 6,996


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« #163186 on: May 20, 2012 »

173,786
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Basil | Logan | Skipper | Scarial | Wattson | Daboodee



104 days, 9 hours and 34 minutes
Offline Adam

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Flies in His Eyes


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« #163187 on: May 20, 2012 »

173,787.
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AKA: Chibi
Offline Ezlo's Apprentice

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Posts: 6,996


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« #163188 on: May 20, 2012 »

Hirdy girdy shmirdy 173,788
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Basil | Logan | Skipper | Scarial | Wattson | Daboodee



104 days, 9 hours and 34 minutes
Offline Big Tater

Zora
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Posts: 642


« #163189 on: May 20, 2012 »

173,789

can't sleep!
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Offline Bidet to you sir

zim
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Posts: 2,478


« #163190 on: May 20, 2012 »

173790

It's liberalism, liberalism has and will always mean "pro-capitalism" almost all major parties in the world right now are neo-liberal and engage in mass privatisation, libertarians and Conservatives are just the worst type.

Social Democrats are "ok" but most social democratic parties have shifted massively to the right in recent years and engage in mass privatisation as well.

Examples include the UK Labour Party, started off as a left wing socialist party, became a centre left social democratic party which produced great things like the welfare state and the NHS, now actively adds private companies to the mix.

Liberalism is an enemy of the working classes.

Conservatives are just socially regressive on top of that.


Edit: lol, maybe after I finish my degree I should read (because even as a socialist, it's still a fucking hard book) Das Kapital, and start a reading book club thread where we read through it together.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012 by Bidet to you sir » Logged

Offline hisak

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« #163191 on: May 20, 2012 »

173,791

Socialists are better at reading?
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Offline Bidet to you sir

zim
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Posts: 2,478


« #163192 on: May 20, 2012 »

173,792

No, but they're clearly terrible at making parsable sentences.  

I meant that even as someone who advocates the politics produced by das kapital, I've only glanced at it, and got most of my views from secondary sources, and personal experience, because das kapital is a fucking hard book to read.

Surprising that, the most important philosopher of the modern age, writing things that are hard to grasp.

Oh wait, no, I mean the oposite, very unsurprising.
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Offline hisak

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« #163193 on: May 20, 2012 »

173,793

I meant that even as someone who advocates the politics produced by das kapital, I've only glanced at it

Have you ever considered evangelicalism.

Also I saw my high school acquaintances on Facebook the other day explaining how the Nazi party was socialist because it has socialism in the name and how if you want a good example of what happens to socialist countries you should read Animal Farm.
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Offline Bidet to you sir

zim
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Posts: 2,478


« #163194 on: May 20, 2012 »

173794

The evangelicalism thing would be funny if socialism was entirely the works of marx and hasn't been expanded upon (and also put more simply) by many people since then.

Also people quoting Orwell for anti-socialist reasons is always hillarious, Orwell was a fucking socialist, just not an authoritarian stalinist.

He was on watch lists and fought with anarchists against the fascists in the spanish civil war.

Fascism is interesting, it takes ideas from socialism, many fascists were socialists to begin with, to argue there is no link between some socialist ideals and fascism is disingenuous, but it's also disingenuous to remove any links between fascism and capitalism, monarchism, nationalism etc.

Socialism aims to produce equality through the seizing of the means of production for the workers, fascism argues that capitalism hates the workers, but also argues for strict classes, but that the main organisation of society should be the nation, not the people, and that the nation is beyond class distinctions.

Basically it twists socialist/revolutionary terms and discourse as a way of keeping elements ot the status quo intact.

Theres a reason why fascism rises in times of austerity much like socialism, it's the final tactic of the bourgeoisie to preserve their privelege, by trying to co-opt the working classes into a reactionary police state, and fighting against class consciousness to produce proletarians who acts against their own self interest (i.e. socialism).

Thats why the Nazis got support from people who would otherwise have been left wingers, and why they eventually killed and purged those left wing elements from themselves once they'd consolidated power.

Edit:from marxists.org

While Mussolini had once been a member of the Socialist party (banished from the party for his rampant support of World War I), Hitler fought leftists from the first. Thus it is not without irony, that in the name for his party Hitler used “socialist,” (Nazi = National Socialist) conceding to the engrained consciousness the German masses had for leftist ideals. It should be noted that fascism supported the community ideal, but not the grass-roots power of direct community democracy as Socialism demands, but the obideance and unity of the community to vanguard of the Nation. Further, orthodox fascism constantly parrots the Communist lexicon of working class struggle, etc, for reasons of populism. Neo-fascism, on the other hand, disdains any trace of Socialist/Communist terminology in thier labels, and instead appeals to new populist roots: the modern aspirations of many workers to be wealthly, to be stronger than others, etc.

Fascism championed corporate economics, which operated on an anarcho-syndicalist model in reverse: associations of bosses in particular industries determine working conditions, prices, etc. In this form of corporatism, bosses dictate everything from working hours to minimum wages, without goverment interference. The fascist corporate model differs from the more moderate corporatist model by eradicating all forms of regulatory control that protect workers (so-called "consumers"), the environment, price fixing, insider trading, and destroying all independent workers' organisations. In fascism, the corporate parliament either replaces the representative bodies of government or reduces them to a sham and the state freely intervenes in the activity of companies, either by bestowing favouritism, or handing them over to the control of rivals.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012 by Bidet to you sir » Logged

Offline hisak

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« #163195 on: May 20, 2012 »

173,795

The things I learn from internet message boards. :o

The evangelicalism thing would be funny if socialism was entirely the works of marx and hasn't been expanded upon (and also put more simply) by many people since then.

Well, I mean. That's how religion works too.
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Offline Bidet to you sir

zim
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Posts: 2,478


« #163196 on: May 20, 2012 »

173796

Theres no outright rules and guidelines in marx though.

Especially Das Kapital which is purely a criticism of capitalism, the communist manifesto is close, but not that much.
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Offline hisak

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« #163197 on: May 20, 2012 »

173,797

Seems like "don't use capitalism" would be a guideline. But I get what you mean.
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Online Rew

The Hylian Grammarian
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Subjecting innocents to Vogon poetry since 1980.


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« #163198 on: May 20, 2012 »

173,798.

I agree with most of what Zim said in his first post (I only skimmed the later posts, I'm afraid). I too consider myself a socialist (but not a full communist), and I would like to do some reading on the matter.
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Offline hisak

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« #163199 on: May 20, 2012 »

173,799

Hi Rew!
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