Motion Controls

[The_Human_Cyborg]

Sony proves that if you can't beat them, join em.

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/107/1076561p1.html

the playstation move and project natal are proving that motion controls are no fad. But how will this affect the Wii? And in general, the future of gaming?

[Bidet to you sir]

I see motion controls as being around for a while, but they will never ever live up to any expectation we put on them, unlike conventional controls, which well we're pretty happy with.
As of now the downsides to motion controls are clear.
No force feedback.
you will never have absolute 1:1 movement.
when they try to acheive it, all that happens is the game is made easier.
you need a controller.

now force feedback and controllers will change, natal is making that clear, and force feedback could be implemented, even with a no controller system, you can simply have something attached to the hand without the need for button pressing.
Natal does interest me due to this.
but if anything a controller free system simply makes the 1:1 motion thin even worse, at leas with a wiimote, or from the sounds of it these playstation controllers, theres some form of detachment in the game sure you swing with a sword in a specific direction but thats all you did, what happens on screen is not an exact copy, with no controller you absolutely expect perfect 1:1 because you threw that punch not the one on screen, I think it will make the experience feel odd to say the least.

without a control, it seems like I really should have control of everything, but I can't actually do all the running and jumping as well as the fighting, imagine heavy rain done natal style.
so as far as I can tell natal will always feel distant.

The wiimote and this playstation wand are distant in another way, in natal I assume you'll be forced into controlling only certain aspects, as much as a classic controller would make you control, just with interesting adjustments.
The wiimote and this playstation one are distant on purpose as it specifically gives you certain things to control as usual.

Now is that a bad thing, I'll say no, it's no different to classic controls but with added perks of motion control.

the problem lies with us, it's the uncanny valley, imagine humanoid robots, we know all too well the more human they look the less we can associate with them, because they're slightly wrong.

I think this is the problem with motion controllers, they're slightly wrong, we think we should have more control than we will ever be able to get, especially as they get better, natal for example I think will ultimately be poor because we feel like we should BE the character on screen, not just his puppetmaster, because as far as we are aware he/she/whatever is a perfect avatar, that we control with our specific body, not predetermined button presses.

Thats why I think motion controls will possibly be around for a long time, but will never outdominate classical control methods, or never fully evolve to their logical outcomes, such as full control, because we can't effectively do it, we can imagine dodging bullets, and we can press buttons that make us do it, and we can do random wrist flicks as well.
but we can't do the motion.

One day I expect some form of thought based gaming, or something else (I don't know yet) that will give us the true immersion we want from motion controls, but motion itself won't, because we can't do the motions, we can only imagine ourselves doing them, or make some sort of poor attempt that somehow becomes a complex movement on screen.

[Geneaux486]

Even the ping pong ball on the top is cool.  This will probably be alright, as long as all their games don't become motion-based from here on out.  It's a neat feature, but it doesn't work with every type of game.

[Be_yourself]

perhaps gaming gloves?

I can see that as being a very easy to use for gesture based controls.  each finger could be differentiated from with their various motions( a seperate sensor in each).

Buttons could be placed on the back or on the end of fingers(so that placing finger and thumb together would press with ease...).

[Ezlo's Apprentice]

perhaps gaming gloves?

Old news:





As for the latest entrant to the motion control scene, Playstation Move, I'm surprised at how brazen Sony's imitation is, right down to the additional Nunchuk-esque controller and a demo sports title. It will be interesting to see if it actually takes off, since the SixAxis was such a fantastic failure. The success of the Wii has been driven largely by casual sales of a system with a pick-up-and-play mentality at a reasonable price. Can Sony lure the same crowd?

Oh, and the ball on the end still looks ridiculous.

[Bidet to you sir]

You say brazen copy, but seeing as everyone seems to want to go the motion route why is there such a big deal with similar designs?
It'd be like complaining about the xbox controller having 4 buttons, a dpad, two analougues, two bumpers and two triggers being a rip-off of the playstation controller, and that by extension is a ripoff of the snes controller with tweaks.

It seemed pretty obvious from the outset that the wiimote was probably the best thought out motion design and would be for a while.

Also how is sixaxis a fantastic failure....huge amounts of the PS3 games implement it in someway or another, unless you thought there were going to be entirely tilt based games....

[Scott Shelby]

You say brazen copy, but seeing as everyone seems to want to go the motion route why is there such a big deal with similar designs?

Yup. The only people who care are system fanboys, who wouldn't buy it anyways.

It'd be like complaining about the xbox controller having 4 buttons, a dpad, two analougues, two bumpers and two triggers being a rip-off of the playstation controller, and that by extension is a ripoff of the snes controller with tweaks.

It seemed pretty obvious from the outset that the wiimote was probably the best thought out motion design and would be for a while.

Yup, the goal in designing controllers is to maximize functionality and comfort. When you find a template that works, there's no reason not to follow it.

Also how is sixaxis a fantastic failure....huge amounts of the PS3 games implement it in someway or another, unless you thought there were going to be entirely tilt based games....

He's just talking out of his ass, as per the usual.

[Geneaux486]

It'd be like complaining about the xbox controller having 4 buttons, a dpad, two analougues, two bumpers and two triggers being a rip-off of the playstation controller

  Great scott, you're right!  

Also how is sixaxis a fantastic failure....huge amounts of the PS3 games implement it in someway or another, unless you thought there were going to be entirely tilt based games....

It's my understanding that it isn't the main focus in PS3 games like it is for Wii games.  Sometimes that works really well for Wii games, sometimes it very much does not.  I still don't see how sixaxis is a failure though.  Sony did what I kind of wish Nintendo had done to a greater extent, use motion-sensitive control alongside more traditional controllers.  Motion control is a nice innovation, but for some wii games it just feels tacked on.  And yeah, I know they have the classic controller for the Wii, I own one myself.  It sucks.  They should've just updated the Gamecube controller, had it set up to where you could actually push both joysticks inward without bumping your thumbs together.  As for whether or not they'll be able to attract the same casual gamer crowd as the Wii, that also depends heavily on the simplicity of these games and the setup.  The Move looks a lot more complex than the Wiimote and nunchuck do, and that could just as easily put more casual gamers off.  I just hope traditional first person games aren't abandoned for motion controlled ones, they're really annoying.

[Loki]

the playstation move and project natal are proving that motion controls are no fad.

fad  (fd)
n.
A fashion that is taken up with great enthusiasm for a brief period of time; a craze.

I don't see how that proves that it's not a fad. Only time can tell us that much; Sony and Microsoft getting in on the action only seem to further it's fad status. And if they kill it and we all go back to regular controllers, well... then it becomes the definition incarnate.

I much prefer just a regular controller. I don't want to get home from work and flail around; that's my character's job. I want to grab a controller, sit back, and relax while I destroy hordes of whatever the latest enemy is.

[Bidet to you sir]

Nero's exactly right, we have no idea, personally I think this makes it feel more like a fad, sony and microsoft had previously felt no need to change so drastically then the wii comes about and they jump on the brand new bandwagon.
Also I wonder how many gamers who have been well gamers for years have been disenfranchised by the wii, I know I have.
Maybe the playstation move will change my mind.
Maybe Natal will, I will try both.
I am willing to be convinced.

[Geneaux486]

Nero's exactly right, we have no idea, personally I think this makes it feel more like a fad, sony and microsoft had previously felt no need to change so drastically then the wii comes about and they jump on the brand new bandwagon.

The Wii tapped into a market that wasn't previously in the habit of purchasing many video games.  It was inevitable that Sony and Micrsoft would try to get in on that to.  If it is a fad, other companies adopting the style is not an indicator either way, it'll be indicated by the gamers, casual and otherwise.

[Loki]

If it is a fad, other companies adopting the style is not an indicator either way, it'll be indicated by the gamers, casual and otherwise.

That doesn't technically make it not a fad. That just means it's simply a fad in gaming companies right now to want to add motion control to their system. So in some respects, it's still kind of faddy.

Hypothetically, of course. Not saying it is a fad, just that what you said doesn't make it not a fad.

[Geneaux486]

What I said was that this isn't a determination either way.  These are just smart business decisions, and those aren't fads, they've been around for a while.  Even if some companies don't always do that.

[Ezlo's Apprentice]

Also how is sixaxis a fantastic failure....huge amounts of the PS3 games implement it in someway or another, unless you thought there were going to be entirely tilt based games....

Okay so "fantastic failure" may be a slight exaggeration, but there can be no denying that Sony's first cry of "Me too" when it came to motion control gameplay was rushed and poorly thought out. The decision to remove rumble back-fired horribly leading to the reintegration of the "outdated" tech, and while I'm sure there are other titles which have used the Sixaxis technology to some extent, the one title I know of that tried to make a full game from the controls is Lair. Critically panned, I believe it's seen as one of the least impressive games of this generation (that isn't a piece of licensed shovelware on Wii).

It'd be like complaining about the xbox controller having 4 buttons, a dpad, two analougues, two bumpers and two triggers being a rip-off of the playstation controller, and that by extension is a ripoff of the snes controller with tweaks.

Nintendo did it all first, didn't they? But I do see your point. Controller design for the other companies seems to be about evolution, rather than revolution though. Nintendo take the bold decisions, the other companies follow up with their own take. If the Virtual Boy hadn't been the bright red, headache inducing nightmare it was, we could all be playing games in a totally different manner. Now there's a scary thought.

But when I call the Move a brazen copy, I say it more with genuine surprise than my usual level of disain. When the system was unveiled it bared more than a passing resemblance to the Wii, but I was going to let it slide. Now we see the full set up and there's more than a few similarities on show.

At least Natal is brave and bold - and a little bit insane. The E3 demonstrations suggested it could so much that it still makes my head spin. The level of interactivity it promises is unlike anything I expected in my lifetime, so if it works out well done to them. If it doesn't, well I guess they at least tried and they've got plenty of money to throw away on major gambles like this.

But at the end of the day, both parties are after Nintendo's share of the gaming pie and, as the discussion appears to have moved on to, Move and Natal raise two big questions for the industry:
1) Do hardcore gamers care at all for motion controls and will they buy into either new ways to play?
2) Do casual gamers really want to pay out for another system, especially one which is more of the same in Sony's case?

I think Sony will have a really hard time cracking the casual market because the PS3 still requires quite the financial investment. While there's no word on price for Natal, with all it's fancy tech I can't see it being under £150 so Microsoft could also struggle. In the end, Nintendo got in first and that is what will hurt their competitors most. Winning over an established user base is never easy.

As for the hardcore crowd, haven't they been dismissing motion controls as a gimmick since the Wii launch? Is it really going to suddenly become cool just because Sony are doing it?

Acutally, maybe. I forget how fickle the internet is.

[Bidet to you sir]

on the sixaxis front, you are correct, no game uses it exclusively, but fortunately game designers are clever people, and they have found ways to implement it that really do fit quite well into gameplay, and doesn't feel gimicky, while still mostly sticking to classic controls.
The dualshock not working with sixaxist thing was a lie, they'd been sued for copyright infringement, the sixaxis reason wasn't true, and everyone knows it.

I don't know, nintendo has made some pretty poor decisions in the past while other companies have been the revolutionaries, the lack of online play on the gamecube is one example (admitedly online play on the PS2 sucked), the fact that the N64 stuck with cartridges and abandoned the playstation to sony (admittedly due to legal issues), this resulted in 102 million sales for sony, compared to the N64 selling 32 million, pushing back nintendo in the games market.
And of course, I know it doesn't matter to you, but they did make a mistake by not going HD, if Nintendo doesn't really push up its graphics capabilities next generation, or they do something insane which catches peoples attention again, you will have HD consoles with motion capability, from the other systems.
I don't see Nintendo doing very well if it comes to that.

[hisak]

And yeah, I know they have the classic controller for the Wii, I own one myself.  It sucks.  They should've just updated the Gamecube controller, had it set up to where you could actually push both joysticks inward without bumping your thumbs together.

Well, you will be happy (maybe) to know that they're releasing an updated version of the Classic Controller next month. The analog sticks are further apart on this one.


Anyway, I'm interested in seeing where this goes. I don't think any of us really have any idea what the limits of motion-sensing technology is, so it's silly for us to assume it'll either be the future or that it'll be a complete failure. I think IR-type pointing, Metroid Prime 3-style, is a huge benefit to gaming that should stick around, even if motion controls themselves don't.

[Geneaux486]

Well, you will be happy (maybe) to know that they're releasing an updated version of the Classic Controller next month. The analog sticks are further apart on this one.

Doubt there'll be a reason to check it out in the near future.  They really should've done something about the analog problems before they released the original.

Anyway, I'm interested in seeing where this goes. I don't think any of us really have any idea what the limits of motion-sensing technology is, so it's silly for us to assume it'll either be the future or that it'll be a complete failure. I think IR-type pointing, Metroid Prime 3-style, is a huge benefit to gaming that should stick around, even if motion controls themselves don't.

I doubt there's any forseeable limit, and I doubt even more that the innovation will go out of style.  I'm thinking it'll stick around and become a staple of gaming.  The only variable I can think of is whether or not the majority of developers will put it to good use in their games.  For the most part I think Nintendo's done a good job with it (reminder that the lates Nintendo game I've played is Animal Crossing, so if they've improved or gotten worse I wouldn't know either way).  Some of their games were dissapointing, but that had nothing to do with the way the controls were set up.  I wasn't a huge fan of Metroid Prime 3's use of the motion sensing, but that's a matter of personal preference, not a problem with the way they calibrated it.

[hisak]

I wasn't a huge fan of Metroid Prime 3's use of the motion sensing, but that's a matter of personal preference, not a problem with the way they calibrated it.

Which part of Metroid Prime 3's controls? The aiming, or the random motion sensing task parts? If it's the latter I agree. It was fun at the time, but I don't see game mechanics like that catching on any time in the near future.

I think that Zelda and its reception will be very telling of the future of motion controls. It'll be the first AAA release to be dependent on motion (rather than just IR aiming, as Metroid was, or regular controls with added-on motion, as Mario Galaxy was), so the way it's received will be very important, I think. If they can pull off a successful and satisfying motion-controlled attack system, we could end up seeing a lot more motion in the future.