where do you stand

[dekuofthelostwoods]

please watch before you voted

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=158348990848143&ref=mf

ask before changing polls

[Bidet to you sir]

Hardly a fair video to use seeing as it was a late term abortion, which are illegal in a lot of cases in the United States, as well as most western nations, on top of that she constantly uses words like "hate", so basically she's characterising all pro-choice people as people who hate children, or specifically her.

I would also like to put this little table up about women health issues, it always gives me a chuckle.



You may have to zoom in.

(although the bombing clinic thing is only right if you believe violence is justifed to stop a heinous act, admittedly if you do consider abortion to be murder, it would be genocide, and bombing a building to prevent genocide would usually be considerred justifiable, so the point does sort of stand.)

[Geneaux486]

Don't have facebook.  Couldn't watch.  Am pro-life regardless.

[Scott Shelby]

Changed poll due to biased terminology (pro-abortion vs. pro-choice). I don't have to ask before I do these things OP. If Zim or one of our other more liberal members had started a poll like this with a choice like, "pro- forced birth:, I would have found it equally biased, and changed the poll accordingly.

[dekuofthelostwoods]

ok, i guess i can see the biased part.  moving it that was my bad on not putting in the right place  , but changing the poll without giving me a chance to explain why i worded it the way i did pissed me off because i wanted to see given those choices (pro-life vs. pro-abortion) what way would the poll go.

a side note: i am the kind of person that if you have an issue with me tell me, don't go behind my back

Don't have facebook.  Couldn't watch. 

didn't know that

[Bidet to you sir]

I don't think anyone went behind your back.

Yeah, Dwriors right, despite my dissagreement with the term "pro-life" because it infers that people who are pro-choice are "anti-life", those are the accepted terms amongst most people and it's the least confrontational.

Also I'm not a liberal, they're too right wing.
I'm a social democrat leaning towards Democratic socialist.

Although to be honest, based on my views towards a lot of things, I'm an anarcho-syndicalist, but I'm waiting for after we destroy ourselves before I start trying to build a classless society.

[Geneaux486]

despite my dissagreement with the term "pro-life" because it infers that people who are pro-choice are "anti-life"

And the term pro-choice infers that people who are pro-life are "anti-choice".  The terms are balanced.

[Bidet to you sir]

Unless you're counting the people who say "legal but rare" to be pro-life (most would call them pro-choice) is by virtue of its meaning against the choice of having an abortion, at least legally.

While to call someone who is pro-choice "anti-life" is incorrect and demeaning, calling a pro-life person "anti-choice" is only a way of slandering said opponent, but it is not as incorrect on a factual basis.

I'm not saying you should call pro-life people "anti-choice", at least as a label, it's just the general accepted idea of what it means to be pro-life precludes a belief in thinking it is unacceptable to allow a mother to choose whether to keep a fetus or not.

[Geneaux486]

it's just the general accepted idea of what it means to be pro-life precludes a belief in thinking it is unacceptable to allow a mother to choose whether to keep a fetus or not.

Assuming you believe such a choice in determining the fate of a developing human being should ever exist.  Really is a divisive issue, right down to the terminology.  I still think the terms are balanced.  Especially, at least in our media, the terms are thrown around with little to no context ever given.

[Bidet to you sir]

Oh, I don't dissagree, I just would argue that pro-life holds a strong implication that pro-choice people are anti-life, much like pro-choice implies people who are pro-life are anti-choice.
All I'm saying is the first one is much less accurate than the second, because pro-life peope are "anti-choice", but only because they believe that such a thing shouldn't even be able to be a choice.
While to argue that people who are pro-choice are anti-life is completely wrong, because it implies people who believe Women have a right to abortions are somehow opposed to pregnancy and childbirth itself, which is just beggars belief.

[dekuofthelostwoods]

ok so i was able to put the poll back to what it was soooo
vote

[Bidet to you sir]

I clicked pro-abortion, because I'm pretty annoyed at this thread and want it aborted.

[Scott Shelby]

Deku, don't go behind my back and change the poll again. It stays at it is. I'm starting to think this is a flame-bait thread, so you'd best prove me wrong, or I'll lock this and hand out dubs.

[Hyruleansoldier]

Considering how the planet's overpopulated more people should consider abortion, or just not get pregnant in the first place.  Sadly for our species it's always the dumbest people first - not really thinking/planning ahead, whereas the most clever and thinking-everything-through people feel more and more reserved with putting kids into this world.  It should be the other way around: clever people with a good sense of morality making more babies, and the more careless, irresponsible people not going too crazy with the whole reproduction thing.

Lol.  But most of these views will never become dominant, maybe if we face some kind of extinction event and all the oil and a lot of the water & food reserves are depleted, a couple of generations later.  There's many things wrong with this world, but abortion or euthanasia for that matter are not among them.  They're good trends, or at least the philosophy behind them is good --- I don't condone of promiscuous/unprotected sex where abortion ends up being the "contraceptive", and I do support a better sex ed system / some magical way people will become more conscious about their actions and what they might lead to.  This also goes for the people that don't end up getting abortions: even if you're pro life it doesn't mean it's the best thing for that person to do.  Sticking to one's morals will only get you that far in life (or in heaven?).  You gotta make life better not just for yourself but also your environment, and that reasoning can go both ways.

I hope that's enough of a nuance so as to not get flamed ^^

[Big Tater]

I'm split on the issue: I don't agree with murdering babies, but at the same time, if you get pregnant via rape and you want to get an abortion then you should be able to.  I don't agree with third trimester abortions though, the fetus is just too far developed for abortion to be humane. 

[Bidet to you sir]

I need to understand this, because I can never wrap my head around it.

Why is murder (what you believe abortion is) acceptable if the person being murdered is conceived in a deeply unfortunate way.

I mean you wouldn't say a mother can kill a 4 year old if he was a rape conceived child, why is the fetus acceptable if you consider it the murder of a "baby"?

I mean if you believe a human life begins at conception then abortion should be a completely reprehensible act at any point and for any reason, like all murder.

[Big Tater]

You're right, murder isn't acceptable, I didn't think about that.  Like I said, I'm split on the issue.

[Geneaux486]

Human life does begin at conception.  Upon the moment of conception, you've got a developing human being that will, unless acted upon by an outside force, grow and develop on a natural path that leads to birth (though there's always a chance something else will go wrong with the pregnancy, we're just as susceptible to death on the outside as we are in the womb, that's part of life to).  For me, it's not a question about when abortion is a viable option, it's a question of what gives us the right to put that option on the table at all.  I don't believe we have that right.

[Witless]

Seriously, go for that abortion if you want as long as it's possible. The world doesn't need more unwanted babies or people who made a mistake and pay for it for the rest of their lives.

We shoot people in wars or kill people on death row. Get over yourself.

[Geneaux486]

The world doesn't need more unwanted babies or people who made a mistake and pay for it for the rest of their lives.

A logical fallacy.  Nobody can predict the path a child's life will take, and to say that a human being's right to grow and experience life exists only if the benefits outwiegh the costs right off the bat is ridiculously short-sighted.  It's that type of logic that the world doesn't need more of.  That's my opinion.